Friday, February 01, 2008

Leave no Libyan child behind: sequels of non- islamic adoption


A couple of years ago I received a heartbreaking email from an American woman called Shannon.

Shannon’s father was a Libyan exchange student in the 70s and dated her mother and they had a child. Apparently he either did not know his girlfriend was pregnant when he left or knew and could not face his folks back home. Whatever the story Shannon’s parents were in their first year of college, so they must have barely been 18-19 if not younger.

In those days Libya used to send students with a distinction (and others who simply graduated)from high school to American universities and colleges. It probably was a big deal for the guy to actually have a girlfriend and enjoy things he would not normally do at home.
Although a large number of Libyan male students ended up marrying their American girlfriends as attested by the many Libyan-American marriages we have, this guy must have been too young to marry and he probably went back home too quickly being simply an exchange student. I’m not trying to excuse him, but just to put a perspective on what might have happened.

So Shannon’s mum gave her baby up for adoption because her own mother forced her to. It seems that adoption in the US in those days kept the child in total ignorance of who his/her parents are; which is something that Shannon has suffered from heavily. Shannon who did not know her origin met with some racism and bigotry in the USA where she was born and raised American (after all she is half American).
She says : “obviously I was raised in the US but not just the multi-culture US [but]Missoula Montana where there is no culture except native American and straight up white American”. Since I did not want to take her word for it - a simple Google search shows that 93.57 % are white according to this.

I am hoping she was not traumatically discriminated against as I understand that America is a land where racism has been eradicated and any reference to it is vigorously wiped out or punished by the civil society.

I have not done much research on it , though from the Mel Gibson case I have understood that for example Jews have a special standing and anything that would insult them is forbidden because they suffered so much in WWII. Accordingly I assume that other minorities are treated in the same manner and defended just as much as Jews since they are just as important in America, where everyone is American regardless of ethnicity, religion, race or origin. But, this post is not about racism, so kindly don't dare any of you turn it into one, the racism post is in the pipeline but not just yet.

So Shannon wrote to me looking for a friend from Libya to learn about Libya and Islam. I offered her help in finding her dad but it turns out she had found him and her mum too. I was so mad and sad at the same time at how can a Libyan child be raised by strangers and in total ignorance of her heritage, ancestry and religion and where she has no opportunity to make a choice.
This feeling of loss has resulted in Shannon having a messed up life in which she too had to give her baby for adoption as a teenage pregnant mother. But although at least this time her daughter Chariti has a better life, I view it as another Libyan blooded granddaughter lost somewhere in America! Another tragedy . Shannon struggled hard to make a decent life for herseolf. She has started her own blog a while back to come to terms with her story and to campaign for the right of adopted children to know their lineage and biological parents. Bravo Shannon. She also was published and is writing a book.

This is an excerpt from 'Ethiopian poet, playwright and author Lemn Sissay, 39, [who] was raised by a white family in the north of England. Here he tells how his life often felt like an experiment.' [ref] I found it relevant to the topic.



"I remember my mother often saying to me: "Don't look at me with those big
brown eyes." She probably never meant it negatively but it meant that I grew
up with a fear of my own eyes.

Shannon has found out that in Islam ‘adoption’ is different than in the Western world . Basically the children if of known parents keep their surname and are cared of as one of the family (or in an orphanage if there is no family) but always know whom they belong too originally . I think this is better because sometimes people might end up falling in love with their genetic siblings which is incest in many cultures and religions - as witnessed in this much publicised story below:

"Twins who were separated at birth and raised by different families met later and married, unaware that they were brother and sister" [ref 1] .

" if you don't know you are biologically related someone, you may become attracted to them and tragedies like this may occur." [ref 2] And part of the attraction is because you are related so you already like each other a lot without knowing why. A good example is the German couple below which is even worse because they had children:

" Patrick Stübing, an unemployed locksmith, and his sister Susan have had four children together since starting a sexual relationship in 2000. Three of the children are in foster care, and two have unspecified disabilities.
The couple, who live near Leipzig, grew up separately and only met many years later. Their supporters say they will fight until incest is no longer regarded as a criminal offence, arguing that the law is out of date." [ref 3]

Basically I think Islamic adoption law is fairer and more just. You will get a more balanced individual who would not be always racking his/her brain ‘who am I?’ . I mean we already have enough identity problems as it is without adding another dimension.

This story has made me wonder how many unknown Libyan kids there are out there, it has also reminded me how much I get angry when some foreign mothers (mostly of so called Western origin) who finding that life in the ME is not exactly what they had in mind decide to leave and raise their children in the West. They resort to literally 'kidnapping' them because their governments give them immediate nationalities and protection. They end up raising kids who are estranged from their heritage and are simply other Europeans or (Americans). It made me think that my tribal mentality still prevails , kids born of Libyan fathers are first and foremost Libyan, then they can be something else - that's my personal opinion. Of course if the father is not Libyan then they belong to their father’s country foremost.

At this point I would like to say that no matter what was his excuse her father should have done the correct thing and married the woman and taken his daughter back home after divorcing her if she really did not to want a life with him or made other arrangements that would safeguard his own flesh and blood - because sometimes Libyans and other Arabs are accused of kidnapping if they even want their children back home for the summer or in cases of divorce and custody fights [ref 4, ref 5, ref 6 ]- (for the record in my opinion for children of international divorce if the father is Arab they should go back to the father point blank; if an Arab woman on the other hand marries a Western guy then she should weigh the consequence very well! but that's another post so I kindly request we don't overspill about it in the comment section because I will not post the comment).

To get back to the story I would lay the blame more on Shannon's biological Libyan father because he knew the rules of paternity and how important that is for us, while Shannon's mother only did what was normal in her city/country, namely give up the child for adoption as she had no means to shoulder the responsibility nor did her parents want to. After all she was barely a child herself. I am adamant that no child with a Libyan drop of blood should be left out.

Shannon found her dad , but he died in an accident before she could meet him. I wish she had been able to come to Libya and get his surname and proudly wear it because that is rightfully hers even if she was born out of wedlock. I don’t care whether her parents were married or not she still has a right to his name and to the protection of the tribe, she is still our flesh and blood.

Go read her blog it sounds like a movie . I’m proud of you Shannon and hope to see you one day here in Tripoli. You’ve come a long way babe, and it' s good to see you blogging again.
May God bless you and keep you safe. Amen.

PH :) I think she qualifies as a Libyan blogger wa la' ?

21 comments:

khadijateri said...

Highlander,
Thanks for this post. It brings up so many points that are all relevant topics. Here I am first to post a comment too.

Being an American married to a Libyan, and having met my husband in America when he was a student there, I can assure you that the majority of Libyan males that go off to study are mainly busy playing around and getting into trouble. I think for the most part the ones that make the most problems are the ones that are undergraduate students - the post grads (like my husband) tend to be a bit more mature and focused.

There are tons of stories out there like Shannon's. Libyan males seem to think nothing of leaving the spawn of their loins behind. - and not only Libyans but other Arab nationalities as well.

They had no interest in marrying a girl that they picked up in a bar or a disco... how could they? They were 'bad girls'. So have fun and then let the cards fall where they may.

For those that married, had children and tried to come back to Libya to make a life - it was not always the utopia they thought it would be. Many women took the closest opportunity to leave with their kids. (some do their best and try to raise their kids here but leave after more then ten years of trying) Back home they go to start their life anew.

'Kidnapping' is a two-way street with many Libyan men bringing their kids back to Libya. Unfortunately probably 99.9% of the kids that are kidnapped and brought to Libya are dumped on their grandmothers or other relatives while their father gets busy marrying the Libyan girl of his dreams - they're too busy to raise the half castes.

I met an old woman once who was raising her son's half Libyan kids - she was not pleased- no not one bit to be stuck with them. And the kids I have met here who are in this situation...hmmm... I have never met any who were happy. All dreamed about being with their mothers and not stuck being raised by relatives who wished they had never been born. It's a sad, sad, situation.

This could be a book! Thanks for posting this, and thanks for calling attention to the latest Libyan blogger - because Shannon is surely Libyan.

Oh the comments you will recieve... I'll be reading :)

programmer craig said...

But, this post is not about racism, so kindly don't dare any of you turn it into one, the racism post is in the pipeline but not just yet.

Well, OK... but you sure did make a lot of cracks about racist America. Perhaps you should have left those out if you didn't want people to comment on them :)

It seems that adoption in the US in those days kept the child in total ignorance of who his/her parents are;

His/her parents are the couple who adopts the child. That's the law. The birth parents are referred to as the "biological parents". It still is customary to shield both the biological parents and the adopted child from making the identity of the biological parents known. Many adopted children do not even know they are adopted.

which is something that Shannon has suffered from heavily. Shannon who did not know her origin met with some racism and bigotry in the USA where she was born and raised American (after all she is half American).

She's not "half American" - she's American. I have a cousin who was born in South Korea, to Korean parents. He was adopted as an infant. Would you say he is 0% American? He's American. Period.

Basically I think Islamic adoption law is fairer and more just.

That's been obvious from the beginning of the post :)

Would a Muslim couple in Libya adopt a child born in the US, to American parents? Or a child born in Romania, to Romanian parents? Or a child like my cousin, born in South Korea to Korean parents? How would Islamic law handle such a thing? The identity of the biological parents in all of these cases is protected by law, in order to shield the biological parents from having any parental responsibilities - because in most cases, it is exactly those parental responsibilities and the inability of the biological parents to cope with them, that has caused them to put their baby up for adoption in the first place. It is a very small number of adopted children who are actual orphans.

I really disagree with you about this one, Highlander. But, I'm glad that you are feeling well enough now to make one of your spirited posts :)

MusicLover said...

She says : “obviously I was raised in the US but not just the multi-culture US [but]Missoula Montana where there is no culture except native American and straight up white American”


I lived in Spokane and visited Missoula which is not far away, you have to be American Caucasian to live in that part of the country.


Large number of Libyan male students ended up marrying their American girlfriends as attested by the many Libyan-American marriages we have.

Most of their marriages were not based on love but due to political circumstances.

This story has made me wonder how many unknown Libyan kids there are out there.

I have seen it in USA and Egypt, I do not understand how can a father abandon his own child and the worst part is the double standard when it comes to a baby girl.


I get angry when some foreign mothers (mostly of so called Western origin) who finding that life in the ME is not exactly what they had in mind decide to leave and raise their children in the West.

Honestly I fault the Libyan men, because during their courtship, early years of marriage they behave
like Americans or Europeans,they loose their Libyan identity,as their kids become teenagers these Libyan fathers suddenly wake up, they decide to be religious,want to go back home, regret they married, then marriage problems start. I believe most of these ladies who got married to Libyans were seduced by Libyan men cooking for them :-)

Libyan men need to educate their future spouses about their culture and religion so that there will be no major conflicts in the future.

American Woman
youtube.com/watch?v=n1x6NNNfVJc

MusicLover said...

Majority of Libyan males that go off to study are mainly busy playing around and getting into trouble.

As if all Libyans were living similar life of John Belushi in Animal House
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_House

the post grads (like my husband) tend to be a bit more mature and focused.

You are the lucky lady :-)

There are tons of stories out there like Shannon's. Libyan males seem to think nothing of leaving the spawn of their loins behind. - and not only Libyans but other Arab nationalities as well.


Tons of stories, as if we Arabs the only thing we come for is to get laid in USA.


some do their best and try to raise their kids here but leave after more then ten years of trying) Back home they go to start their life anew.

I agree with you in this point, my mother was not smart enough, she should have dumped my father after ten years of marriage, she could have lived like a hippie during the flower generation, get high and listen to Jimi Hendrix during Woodstock Festival.


'Kidnapping' is a two-way street with many Libyan men bringing their kids back to Libya. Unfortunately probably 99.9% of the kids that are kidnapped and brought to Libya are dumped on their grandmothers or other relatives while their father gets busy marrying the Libyan girl of his dreams - they're too busy to raise the half castes.

I have to agree 100% with khadija teri because Libyan women "sorry ladies" are racist big time. It is not easy to live in Libya when your mother is a foreigner. Libyan woman has an issue raising step kids specially if their mother is not Libyan, this applies even to Libyan woman in USA.


Half of the babies born in my state are out of wedlock, it is no more confined to low income women but many high career women like to have kids with out an existence of a man in their lives.

As for Shannon at least she found people who support her. Nobody can tell her she is not a Libyan.

Adopted kids if they had great adopted parents, then they are lucky kids because it takes a big heart to adopt specially if you have your own kids. I have not seen a nation like USA when it comes to adopting kids from other countries.

I am against kidnapping kids, plus I find it selfish for a parent for not living in the same city where the kids are living.

Sister Sledge - We Are Family

youtube.com/watch?v=AJ2L4iPvdIk

Maya M said...

Highlander, I think that you, indeed, let your tribal mantality have a say!
I'll illustrate this by putting things the other way round. Imagine some American, after reading Khadijateri's blog, to write, "Here is a US woman who married a Libyan man and went to Libya. They have six children who are raised as Libyans. Oh this means six poor little lost American souls!"
Then, about racism - I won't comment long after you don't want it, but I think racism is in human nature and every generation has to struggle anew to put it under control, and Wikipedia can write 10000 times that it is eradicated in this or that country, that won't make it true.
I also didn't understand the reference to the Jews, especially since your own link didn't support your thesis (Gibson was punished for his original offense only, drunken driving).
I have read online a lot about anti-Semitism in the USA, though I have never searched about it specifically. US (and European) anti-Semites usually disguise themselves as critics of Israel. Imagine somebody saying, "I am not anti-Libyan at all, don't dare to call me one. I am just against Libya as it is. Libya has to pull out of half of its territory, and if a militia from its neighbour country kills and kidnaps its soldiers, Libya's reaction must be balanced, i.e. it is allowed only to kill and capture an equal number of militiamen."
I would like to comment about the father-vs-mother issue, but I'll wait of your specific post, as you want.
I have very mixed feelings about open adoption. It is hard enough to be a parent, esp. an adoptive parent, even without messing by somebody who has refused to do the job himself. I've recently read about a US couple adopting a Bulgarian girl. They had quite an ordeal, partly due to intervention by the biological parents. For reasons defying logic and common sense, Bulgarian law still allows parents to leave their children at institutions without losing all parental rights. The Bulgarian couple in question had 11 children, all in orphanages (!). The man said in court, "I refuse to let my daughter be adopted by Americans. Why should she have a good life in America while I have a bad life here? Let her have the same bad life." (I guess he wanted money and at the end received it.)
Put yourself in the shoes of adoptive parents - you have the good intention to take a child already damaged by stay in an institution, possibly also by substance abuse during the mother's pregnancy, and now the people responsible for this want to mess with your life and blackmail you. Thanks but no thanks.
A friend of mine regularly visits an institution, makes donations, plays with the children. I asked her about the fate of children after they turn 18. I thought they had no real option but to become thieves or, if female, prostitutes. She said, "They have a hard time but, if really alone, usually find their way in life. However, a girl who knows her biological family is in a great danger, because her mother or sisters often introduce her to the "craft"."
I think this needs no comment.

Ghazi Gheblawi said...

Thanks HL for the post, it sheds a lot light on one of the main issues that we are not allowed to discuss in Libya, don't ask don't tell kind of thing, which we have many. I will be reading Shanon's blog for more info. thanks Ghazi

The Lost Libyano said...

To ‘musiclover’

I lived in Spokane and visited Missoula which is not far away; you have to be American Caucasian to live in that part of the country.

What do you mean by ‘can’t live in that part of the country’? You are living in that part of the country are you not? Did they refuse to rent you an apartment or sell you a house? Have you had your civil liberties infringed upon?

I have to agree 100% with khadija teri because Libyan women "sorry ladies" are racist big time

Well that’s a fairly broad generalization music lover. I for one beg to disagree. Libyan women may be accused of being nationalistic I suppose but ‘racists’, that is unfair at best and slanderous at worst. What is a Libyan? From my understanding a Libyan is a citizen of the Libyan state. From what I have seen Libyans come in all different shades and colors. Some are white, some are bronze, some are olive, some are brown, and some are black.

I am sure that there are Libyan women (as well as men) who may very well be racist's but to make a blanket statement that all Libyan women are ‘racist big time’ well that’s a load of crap.

Highlander is a Libyan women and she is not a racist. She is extremely accepting of all people; look at the statement which she uses as her blog intro, for god sake she wants to make Shannon an honorary Libyan! That alone blazes your outlandish theory.


Half of the babies born in my state are out of wedlock, it is no more confined to low income women but many high career women like to have kids with out an existence of a man in their lives.

Well like the great Germaine Greer said ‘sexual liberation’ did not free female sexuality rather it freed male sexuality. Men are now allowed to have sex with as many women as they want and burn rubber across the state line as soon as they hear the news of the soon to be arrival of a bundle of joy. It is the female who is left with the burden of caring, raising, and providing for the child. She is the one who has the physical attachment. The idea that women who put out out wedlock (especially on the first date) being 'bad girls' is a universal Khadijateri.

What I do not understand is how these men have the gaul to brand these women as 'bad girls' they didn’t have sex with themselves. She has a partner in crime. It’s like the pot calling the kettle black. Humans are strange creatures.

To Maya

I have read online a lot about anti-Semitism in the USA, though I have never searched about it specifically. US (and European) anti-Semites usually disguise themselves as critics of Israel.

Really so Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, and every other Jewish American intellectual who has spoken out against the state of Israel is nothing more then a “Anti-Semite”? I am not surprised, why should I be?

The Arab who racially, culturally and linguistically speaking are the purest stock of the Semitic race in existence today are accused of anti-Semitism whenever they critique the Israeli state.
I believe the ADL actually has a section call “ANTI-SEMITISM in THE ARAB WORLD!” as if the Arabs wake up every morning pledging to kill all those who do not have blond hair and blue eyes!
Anti-Semitism is a political obsolete term. The new ‘Anti-Semitism” which has plagued Europe is Islamophobia. As the brilliant Akbar Ahmed states in his masterful work Islam and Postmodernism the Muslim has come to take the place of the Jew, in that he is viewed by most of his fellow Europeans as the vile and repugnant oriental that must be exterminated at all costs.

Islamophobia is dangerous, and its results in Europe can be seen in the tragedies which occurred in the Balkan and Caucasus during the 90’s. Of course this is by no means the first time European Muslim have been targeted for extermination. It is approximated that over 5 ½ Million European Muslims where systematically slaughtered from 1822-1921.(Please see Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922 by Justin McCarthy)


We have suffered MUCH more then the Jews, yet we are currently being targeted and subjected to a propaganda campaign more malicious and dehumanizing then that which the Nazi's used against European Jewry in the early 20th century.

Let me recount one horrific tale which occurred in your homeland of Bulgaria.

“Examples of Bulgarian atrocities on Turks fill the diplomatic literature with graphic details of mass murders, rape, and pillage. After commenting on despoliation and nightly outrages in one village, one British representative commented, “Such cases as these are the rule, not the exception.” European observers (reporters from the Morning Post, the Times, and the Daily Telegraph) saw 120 Turkish bodies lying in the open in the village of Oklani (Lagahanli), where Turkish women had been locked up in houses, raped over a period of ten days, then burned alive. In some cases, Bulgarians were, in effect, taken into the Russian army, given uniforms and weapons, and used to persecute Turks.”

By the way Daniel Pipes gave the book 3 ½ out of 5 stars. http://www.danielpipes.org/article/704


, and if a militia from its neighbor country kills and kidnaps its soldiers, Libya's reaction must be balanced, i.e. it is allowed only to kill and capture an equal number of militiamen.



Oh please Maya don’t give me that crap. Israel has no right to lecture anyone one the menace of terrorism

The Israeli’s themselves used terrorist tactics to get the state the have now, Haganah, Irgun Zvai, Leumi the Stern Gang anyone? (Go read up on their activities http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/jewish-terrorism.htm)


The Arabs are merely using the same tactics which the Israelis thought and employed against them. I am not excusing them or their tactics, but when looking at the statistics one does not exactly feel much sympathy towards the Israelis. For instance 1 Israeli is currently being held by the Palestinians, yet over 10,756 Palestinians are being held by the Israelis.

I for one am sick of their winning. They have a population similar to that on New Genuine, yet they posses the world third largest nuclear arsenal, and hold the world at ransom.........
Does anyone see something wrong with this picture?


Imagine somebody saying, "I am not anti-Libyan at all, don't dare to call me one. I am just against Libya as it is. Libya has to pull out of half of its territory.

Why should Libya pull out of half of our territory? We Libyans are indigenous to this land it has been ours since as far back as the history records go. We did not come from Europe like the Israelis and steal it from the poor natives residing their. I am shocked and offended that you would compare my country to that evil European settler state.

programmer craig said...

Lost Libyano, I'm disappointed you decided to reply to Mayo with the "Arab Nationalist" party line, instead of well reasoned arguments. Many of your claims were not just false, but obviously false, such as this one:

Why should Libya pull out of half of our territory? We Libyans are indigenous to this land

Arabs are certainly not indigenous to Libya. Arabs conquered Berber Armies there and occupied Libya in the 7th century. Do you dispute this? Or do you claim the right to attach the pre-Arab history to Arab Libya? Why should anyone else buy into that?

One could easily turn this foolish argument around on you, and I'd be surprised if Maya didn't take the opportunity to do so. Arabs conquered Palestine just a couple of decades before they conquered North Africa. Why does "Mine by right of conquest" work for Arabs, but not for anyone else?

Maya M said...

Hi LL! This blog isn't the same when you aren't here :). I agree with your remark about sexual "liberation".
"Really so Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, and every other Jewish American intellectual who has spoken out against the state of Israel is nothing more then a “Anti-Semite”?"
Yes, this is what I mean. Being Jewish makes you less likely to be "anti-Semite", but doesn't exclude it at all. And the phenomenon isn't confined to Jews only. During the Ottoman rule, some Bulgarians served the Turks to oppress other Bulgarians. The story repeated later during the Soviet dominance.
I skip most of your following arguments as unworthy of your intellect.
"Why should Libya pull out of half of our territory? We Libyans are indigenous to this land... We did not come from Europe..."
Excuse me, but because you seem to have deleted your blog again, I am unaware of important events in your life, such as how you moved to Libya, found an accommodation and a job, plus how Libyan dishes taste to you :).
So I have only my obsolete knowledge that you are living in the USA, a land where you are not "indigenous" and where your parents came indeed not from Europe but from Africa, I guess for a native American it is all the same.
I don't know what brought the Jews to this post (and Israel to the earlier post about the Arab passengers who were suspected to be terrorists). If Shannon's adoptive parents were Jews, OK. But nothing of the kind is mentioned. And I don't intend to read the entire Shannon's blog to find out a thing that most likely isn't there at all.
Highlander implies that Jews are preferentially treated in the USA while other minorities are victims of racism. This, together with the puzzling remark that Americans consider it "normal" for a mother to give away her baby, makes me suspect that Highlander was refused US visa the day before she wrote the post :).
I know examples of other US minorities that enjoy undue privileges. Namely, I know that blacks are installed in universities and workplaces instead of more competent white and Asian applicants, and Latinos have succeeded in imposing Spanish as a de facto second language in the USA.
Jews condemned Gibson as I condemn people attacking injustly (to my opinion) Bulgarians. He complained that he was attacked because of his movie and this ruined his nerves. Well, after he has such thin nerves, why did he produce an anti-Semitic movie? (Yes, I know what I am speaking about, I did watch "Passions of Christ" and the only thing I liked about it was that it employed several Bulgarian actors.)
If you cannot endure beating, stay away of the boxing ring.

Maya M said...

Talking about adoption, I've just checked Enlightened Spirit's blog and saw that little cutie Abdallah is still waiting of his adoptive parents :(. Doesn't anybody want him?

MusicLover said...

The Lost Libyano


"What do you mean by ‘can’t live in that part of the country’? You are living in that part of the country are you not? Did they refuse to rent you an apartment or sell you a house? Have you had your civil liberties infringed upon?"

Correction:I am an American by birth, what you wrote does not make sense. You did not understand what I wrote and please do not twist my words to make a point.

You are used to have your civil rights violated on a regular basis in Libya, thinking I live in a society which does not violate it at all. What do you think Patriot Act is? Protecting my civil rights.

I will assume that you are a Caucasian Libyan Arab living in Tripoli, why don’t you try living among Berbers in Zwara, or in El Beida among your own Arab people. Another suggestion is to marry a Black or an Asian lady and live in Fargo, North Dakota. Trust me you will feel at home, The berbers will love you and adopt you as the new kid on the block. The people of the eastern region will love you specially the natives have been living similar lives of the Palestenians under the Israeli Occupation in the last 38 years. Do you ever wonder why no Jews live in the south or Blacks in Montana or Wyoming. The problem maybe you have never experienced it in your life, or feel an alien in a strange land. Did you ever attend a football match between Zwara and another local football team in Tripoli, where you hear fans calling the Berber JEWS, I was rally embarrassed because I was with my berber friends hearing this racism words. You do not what kind of racism Berbers, Foreign wives, Libyan kids with foreign mothers face in Libya.



“Libyan women may be accused of being nationalistic I suppose but ‘racists’, that is unfair at best and slanderous at worst”



Libyan women look down on foreign women who are married to Libyans specially the ones for the Arab World, in the past it was the Egyptians and Tunisians and now Moroccans.. What’s the difference between a Libyan Women Nationalists and Serbs Nationalists, the Serbs will wipe out the Bosnians because these Serbs became muslims and Libyan Women Nationalists will wipe me out, because of my mother is a foreigner, we need pure blood Libyan Society. That’s an extreme statement and I know that. Maybe I am wrong because I see Libyan ladies abroad get along very well, specially between the Tripolitanians and from Barqa :-)


“to make a blanket statement that all Libyan women are ‘racist big time’ well that’s a load of crap”


It is a load of crap, I agree with you, because your mother is a foreigner and you are married to one and to top it you are a Berber and never felt racism in your life.


I will go to the other extreme, marrying woman from Europe or USA, she will tell you jokingly, when I married you, you were living in a mud house and I made you a civilized person. When ever you visit a Libyan man married to a western lady, the lady will always try to make a point that she runs the show and she is the one who wears the pants, I think most of the time they do. You could see the difference when they remarry a Libyan lady, the Libyan men become couch potatos and tyrant in his own house.


"Highlander is a Libyan women and she is not a racist. She is extremely accepting of all people; look at the statement which she uses as her blog intro, for god sake she wants to make Shannon an honorary Libyan! That alone blazes your outlandish theory."


Didn't I read that a blogger calling Highlander has a tribal mentality. Shannon is an American and she wants to be a Libyan which is her right because her father was a Libyan. Nobody has the authority to tell Shannon is a Libyan or not. It is a noble thing from Highlander to bring up the subject of Shannon. Women always stick to each other specially if it is against men :-)

I dedicate this song to you.

Paul McCartney Blackbird LIVE

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iwW6AVBsyoA

Maya M said...

"Didn't I read that a blogger calling Highlander has a tribal mentality. Shannon is an American and she wants to be a Libyan which is her right..."
I was this blogger, but Highlander first used the expression - she wrote, "It made me think that my tribal mentality still prevails..."
I also remember that in some old post she wrote she liked the tribalism expressed in a particular poem (I don't know what she meant there, because the poem wasn't translated).
Tribalism isn't the same as racism. You can have a tribal mentality and still recognize equal merits and rights in other tribes. And tribalism leads to different troubles than racism. But it still leads to trouble.
Tribalism is endemic here in the Balkans. During the renaming of Bulgarian Muslims and Turks, the regime used it to lure support from (non-Muslim) Bulgarians. It said, "These are our people who have been forcibly converted to Islam centuries ago. It is time to return their Bulgarian heritage to them."
The historical part of this statement wasn't far from the truth, but the implications were totally wrong. If today a person identifies himself as Turk and Muslim, what does it matter if his great-grandfather was Bulgarian and Christian?
As for Shannon, it is of course her right to identify herself as Libyan-American if she likes, but I don't think she will make any steps to become a true Libyan, i.e. a Libyan citizen. And if she does, this is likely to be just the next bad decision in her life.
It is one thing to have interest in your exotic ancestry and so to distance yourself from your racist neighbours. It is another thing to fully join a different culture putting severe restrictions on your lifestyle. What will a number of Libyans think of Shannon if they learn her past, i.e. that she has made sex with men she hasn't been married to? They will perceive her as a monster able to do anything, absolutely anything, up to mass murder of children. During our nurses' trial, it was often said that they were able to infect children with HIV because they (allegedly) had had extramarital sex.
And of course racism could be another problem, Shannon has encountered it in her home town because of her Arab and native American traits, who can guarantee that she wouldn't encounter it in Libya because of her "white" traits?

Maya M said...

When a couple has no children and the infertility is believed to be due to male factor, in many countries insemination with sperm from an anonymous donor is offered.
Is this treatment used in Libya? Thinking about the absolute importance attributed to biological paternity, I guess it isn't.

The Lost Libyano said...

Hello Programmer Craig



Why should Libya pull out of half of our territory? We Libyans are indigenous to this land. Arabs are certainly not indigenous to Libya.


Well you see PC now you are putting words in my mouth. I never stated that Arabs are indigenous to Libya in this thread or any other. I used the term 'Libyan' specifically for a reason, please pay attention. "Libyans" are in fact indigenous to Libya. This is a fact which can not be disputed. The overwhelming genetic evidence shows that the vast majority of the inhabitants of the present day North Africa are predominately of Berber origin. Their is very little genetic difference between Arab speakers and Berber speakers in the Maghreb.

The CIA is aware of this, which is why they group Arab and Berber speakers into one category in their fact book entry for Libya. They note that 97% of Libyan's are Arab/Berber. This idea that the Berber's magically disappeared because no more then 200 families from Egypt came to Berber North Africa in the 11th century is complete and utter nonsense, the migration did not even put a tiny dent in the genetic makeup of the greater Maghreb.


In regards to your statement concerning the '7th Century Occupation" of Libya by the Arabs; I do not dispute this. However I do feel the term 'occupation' is misleading because by it you are insinuating that this 'occupation' has lasted since the 7th century which is of course not the case. The 'Arabs' never established a dominant presence in North Africa until the 11th century. As soon as the Berbers converted to Islam and completed their grand conquest of Andaulasia, a almost immediate Berber Kharajite uprising against the Umayyad Dynasty took place in 740. This put a end to the short lived Arab 'occupation' not only in Berber North Africa but although the Muslim World.

The Umayyads where by no means the sharpest tools in the shed. They constantly expanded their boarders to the point where they had developed the largest empire the world had ever seen, the claimed racial superiority to the non-Arab converts, yet at the same time they placed the governance of this grand empire in the hands of those who they deemed to be their inferiors! Naturally the empire did not even last a measly century. The only reason why they accomplished the military success’s which they did in such a short period of time was because God Almighty wanted the news of his final revelation to mankind spread as far west as Spain and Italy and as far east as India and China. That’s my personal take on it.

In regards to the Berbers, their stories are similar to many other Muslims, with the entry of the Kharajites into the equation issues concerning Aqida took place amongst my people. A few massacres where perpetrated, a few scrimmages occurred, and eventually several independent Berber states where formed through out North Africa. And of course we all know of the great Berber Muslim Civilization which followed and gave way to the great Berber empires of the Almovarids and their Successor’s the Almohads, under whose reign the arts, literature and philosophy flourished; producing the great minds of Ibn Rushd, Ibn Al-Arabi, Ibn Tufayl, ect.

The Arabization of the Maghreb did not really get underway until the 11th century Hilalian migration. Prior to that the Maghreb was virtually Amazigan in every aspect, and in many ways it remained so even after the mass migration. Arabization was a slow and gradual process of cultural rather then genetic replacement. It was the Berbers who where drawn to the Arabic Language, culture, and customs it was by no means as many would insinuate imposed upon them.

Virtually all Berberist recognize this, and have always held the position that 'no Arabs exist in North Africa'. All North Africans according to them (myself and the vast majority of geneticists) are in fact Berbers who have 'lost' their 'Amazighity', and must once again come into contact with 'it'.

Why does "Mine by right of conquest" work for Arabs, but not for anyone else?

I understand the point you are trying to make, because I hope you see how silly your statement actually sounds. We are comparing a cultural exchange which occured in the early 11th century to a modern day conflict which began in 1947 where the residents of the holyland where systamatically kicked out of their homes(700,000), slaughtered, raped, and placed into concentration camps by white European colonialists who adhear to the Jewish Faith. The brutal colonialists then went on to establish a midget settler state in the heartland of the middle east, and somehow(perhaps it was Yahweh...... but forgive me I am some what skeptical) accumiliated 300 Nuclear Warheads and established one of the world most sophisticated armies, and began waging constant war against all of their neighbors both near and far.



Let us for one second claim that we shall give all Arabic Speakers in the Magreb the boot. Where shall they go? Genetically speaking they are indigonous to these parts. They have nowhere to go, this is the home of their Berber ancestors if they wish to turn their back on their Berber heritage that is certinaly their poragative. Shall we kick out ever Scot who wears American blue jeans from Scotland because they do not sport the kilts of their ancestors? Times change, cultures changes, human civilization as a whole evolves. (or in the case of the current human culture disintigarates)

Hey Maya:) Its always great to have you on the blog as well.


He complained that he was attacked because of his movie and this ruined his nerves. Well, after he has such thin nerves, why did he produce an anti-Semitic movie? (Yes, I know what I am speaking about, I did watch "Passions of Christ" and the only thing I liked about it was that it employed several Bulgarian actors.)If you cannot endure beating, stay away of the boxing ring.




That is a brilliant point. I did not like the Passions of Christ much either. I suppose Mel might have over did it a tadbit :)

Was the movie anti-semetic? Well no more then the film concerning the flight that was hijacked on 9/11 by Arab Muslim terrorists was Islamophobic. Mel wrote a film about a event which is concidered by many to be a historical fact. Did he over-exagerate the events which took place? Perhaps? But did "United 93" the film concerning the hijacking of the planes overexagerate the behavior of the hijackers(most notebly their constant scream of ALLAH AKBAR while they where attack poor defensless white women)? Perhaps!

I don’t think Gibson’s or Greengrass’s film could be considered Islamophobic or Anti-Semetic, true both stired up anti-Muslim and Anti-jewish sentiment but this was mearly a negative(or possibly in the cases of Greengrass and Gibson a positive) externality.


I know examples of other US minorities that enjoy undue privileges. Namely, I know that blacks are installed in universities and workplaces instead of more competent white and Asian applicants, and Latinos have succeeded in imposing Spanish as a de facto second language in the USA.

Once again very good point. There are many blacks who do not belong in many of the positions which they hold. Not because of their skin colour but rather because they are simply not qualified to hold those jobs.

I too consider myself a 'white victim' of affirmative action. The affirmative action bakesale that is(or soon to be victim). Can you believe that I actually have to pay a whole dollar while a black women pays 25 cents for a cupcake?


Hello Musiclover:)


Libyan women look down on foreign women who are married to Libyans specially the ones for the Arab World, in the past it was the Egyptians and Tunisians and now Moroccans.


Okay so you agree they are NOT racist, they are nationalists.


Libyan Women Nationalists will wipe me out


In regards to Libyan Women wanting to 'exterminate you' :) Libyan women have strange ways of showing their love. My mother occasinaly throws her shebshab at me. Is that the extermination of which you speak of? If its a women your age who is on the offensive perhaps she has a crush on you? You know you can marry up to four women in Islam as long as you treat them all equally. Perhaps these nationalist women are intrested in forming a extended family?

Did you ever attend a football match between Zwara and another local football team in Tripoli, where you hear fans calling the Berber JEWS, I was rally embarrassed because I was with my berber friends hearing this racism words. You do not what kind of racism Berbers, Foreign wives, Libyan kids with foreign mothers face in Libya

Is something wrong with being 'jewish' musiclover:)

Oh cry me a river musiclover. The people of Zuwara have no love loss for their own Berber brothers residing in Jebel Nafusa much less the Arabs. In regards to us Berbers being ‘Jews’ while I beg to differ with the assertion(I am a Muslim) I can understand how one could come to that conclusion.(I will write a post about it).In regards to the 'racism' faced. I am a Berber(full blooded) and when I speak to my uncles and aunts who live in Libya when they visit America about 'Berber Discrimination' they look at me as if I fell and bumped my head, no such thing exists. It seems that you like me are a bit out of touch with reality, but then again we are both avid music lovers and our imaginations occasionaly get the best of us.

I will go to the other extreme, marrying woman from Europe or USA, she will tell you jokingly, when I married you, you were living in a mud house and I made you a civilized person.


That is truley Hilarious. lol.

You could see the difference when they remarry a Libyan lady, the Libyan men become couch potatos and tyrant in his own house.

If thats the case then a Libyan women is the only women for me.

I dedicate this song to you.Paul McCartney Blackbird LIVE

Dont get me wrong dude the Beatles are alright but when it comes to English bands I prefer Good Old Napalm Death.

Enjoy my persecuted friend.:) http://youtube.com/watch?v=SIRUzqHTNh8

MusicLover said...

The Lost Libyano

You Can't Handle The Truth

youtube.com/watch?v=8hGvQtumNAY&
feature=related

You reminded me about this film.

"Oh cry me a river musiclover. The people of Zuwara have no love loss for their own Berber brothers residing in Jebel Nafusa much less the Arabs"

Thank you for validating my point.

"You could see the difference when they remarry a Libyan lady, the Libyan men become couch potatos and tyrant in his own house.

If thats the case then a Libyan women is the only women for me."


Should Libyan women take your statement as a compliment, insult or a sarcastic comment:-)

When you marry the Libyan Lady, you can play this song for her

"Under My Thumb" The Rolling Stones

youtube.com/watch?v=MbZX27CjlRk&
feature=related



Blind Faith :-)

youtube.com/watch?v=wq5oJaqDf7U&
feature=related


My Dying Bride
http://www.myspace.com/mdbride

Thats your taste of music, but listen to Black Sabbath

Mississippi Burning
youtube.com/watch?v=rmAqrMtB-Qg

To kill a mockingbird
youtube.com/watch?v=ZYQOWfMGA_k&
feature=related

I recommend you to watch these 2 famous movies about civil rights and racism

my persecuted friend.:)

Fortunately I was not but I am not blind what goes around me :-)

Thank you for the video clip.

programmer craig said...

Lost Libyano,

Well you see PC now you are putting words in my mouth. I never stated that Arabs are indigenous to Libya in this thread or any other. I used the term 'Libyan' specifically for a reason, please pay attention. "Libyans" are in fact indigenous to Libya. This is a fact which can not be disputed.

Of course that can be disputed, and I am disputing it right now. First of all, the term "Libyan" is meaningless when talking about indigenous people because Tripoli was for all intents and purposes a city state until about 100 years ago.

But the main problem is that Arabs did NOT originate in North Africa, and like it or not most Libyans believe themselves to be Arabs. Would you buy it if I told you Americans were indigenous to North America? That's absurd. A few are. The vast majority came from someplace else.

You can't have it both ways, man.

The overwhelming genetic evidence shows that the vast majority of the inhabitants of the present day North Africa are predominately of Berber origin.

Got a link for that? I wouldn't be surprised, but that isn't what most Libyans say about themselves, is it?

Their is very little genetic difference between Arab speakers and Berber speakers in the Maghreb.

Yeah, well, people make a lot of creative arguments about DNA. Sometimes they are even based on fact :)

I've seen people prove each other wrong, using the exact same genetic analysis. It all depends on what genetic markers you decide to prioritize. One person looks at what is different, another looks at what is the same. And they come to different conclusions.

For what it's worth, I agree with you. Not based on DNA but just based on my eyeballs.

The 'Arabs' never established a dominant presence in North Africa until the 11th century. As soon as the Berbers converted to Islam and completed their grand conquest of Andaulasia, a almost immediate Berber Kharajite uprising against the Umayyad Dynasty took place in 740. This put a end to the short lived Arab 'occupation' not only in Berber North Africa but although the Muslim World.

Oh, not really though! All throughout, Berbers were discovering that they actually had some prominent Arab ancestry that made them much more important than the common folk! This is a kind of cultural or social "occupation" nonetheless, is it not? It's how North Africa got Arabized.

The Umayyads where by no means the sharpest tools in the shed. They constantly expanded their boarders to the point where they had developed the largest empire the world had ever seen, the claimed racial superiority to the non-Arab converts, yet at the same time they placed the governance of this grand empire in the hands of those who they deemed to be their inferiors!

Yes, and they screwed it up really bad when they recruited Mamluk pagan turks into their armies in Baghdad, out of fear of a Persian uprising. They lost the second Caliphate not to Persians, but to those very same Turks (who they converted to Islam) who they'd hoped would defend it.

Such is life, right?

Naturally the empire did not even last a measly century. The only reason why they accomplished the military success’s which they did in such a short period of time was because God Almighty wanted the news of his final revelation to mankind spread as far west as Spain and Italy and as far east as India and China. That’s my personal take on it.

I think they were in the right place at the right time, myself. Their "easy meat" was Byzantium, which was warring against both the Western Roman Empire and the Persians at the same time. Enter Islam. The rest is history.

And of course we all know of the great Berber Muslim Civilization which followed and gave way to the great Berber empires of the Almovarids and their Successor’s the Almohads

Ha! I know of at least one Libyan who has never heard of that crap. You learned that in the US, didn't you? Admit it :P

Either that, or you were playing Rome Total War a little too much.

I understand the point you are trying to make

Good. I'm going to skip everything you said after that, because it was silly. Just because Arabs were successful with transmitting their language and culture to conquered people, doesn't change the nature of the initial conquests. My ancestors were pretty successful transferring their language and culture when they invaded Britain too, but it was still a conquest, and a quite brutal one if the eyewitness accounts are to be believed.

Let us for one second claim that we shall give all Arabic Speakers in the Magreb the boot. Where shall they go? Genetically speaking they are indigonous to these parts. They have nowhere to go, this is the home of their Berber ancestors if they wish to turn their back on their Berber heritage that is certinaly their poragative.

Irrelevant. Israel is the ancestral homeland of Jews, as well. They didn't have anywhere to go when the Romans drove them into exile 2000 years ago. But they still left. Now they are back. Not really sure where you are trying to go with that. People have been driven from their homelands and ethnically cleansed hundreds if not thousands of times, through the ages. It's happening right now in some parts of Africa, and it's also happening in Iraq.

Not a bad comment post for you. You made good points, but you weren't making much of an effort to reply to what I had actually said. More like writing an essay. But whatever... it was still interesting :)

programmer craig said...

LL, one thing I forgot on the "what is a Libyan" thing:

Arabization was a slow and gradual process of cultural rather then genetic replacement.

There were several whole Arab tribes who actually came from the Arabian Peninsula, and migrated to North Africa. Tribal migrations are quite different from a typical military conquest. The sheer numbers involved are much larger, for one thing. Orders of magnitude larger. And when they bring all their kids and their wives (and grannies, and all the widows, and all the orphans, etc) they aren't planning on ever going home again.

Plus every Arab woman they brought with them of reproductive age is popping out pure-strain Arab babies at an alarming rate, like 1 every year. It's the way prosperous tribes are. That's how they stay prosperous. Poor and defeated tribes tend to have high infant mortality, not to mention a host of other problems that keep their birth rates low.

I'm just saying I think you may be underestimating the number of North Africans who say they are Arab, and they really are.

Maya M said...

LL, I tried soooo hard not to be too Islamophobic on this thread. Why did you make it impossible?
"Was the movie anti-semetic? Well no more then the film concerning the flight that was hijacked on 9/11 by Arab Muslim terrorists was Islamophobic. Mel wrote a film about a event which is concidered by many to be a historical fact. Did he over-exagerate the events which took place? Perhaps? But did "United 93" the film concerning the hijacking of the planes overexagerate the behavior of the hijackers(most notebly their constant scream of ALLAH AKBAR while they where attack poor defensless white women)?"
Yes, I admit "United 93" is Islamophobic. I guess its authors would admit the same, though some of them could say and even think that they are against "radical Islam" only, not Islam in general.
Unfortunately, any movie featuring any important event in the world in recent years will inevitably be Islamophobic. Even if it is strictly documentary and all ALLAH AKBARs are skipped.
It is not filmmakers' fault that there were white women aboard Flight 93 and that some Muslims portrayed themselves bad by murdering these women (together with some men and at least one black woman).
Let me return to your earlier comment.
"Islamophobia is dangerous, and its results in Europe can be seen in the tragedies which occurred in the Balkan and Caucasus during the 90’s."
Every time we discuss here the Balkan wars in the 90's, I have to remind you that Serbs attacked Slovenia and Croatia before attacking Bosnia, so there is much more than Islamophobia in the story. But you entirely "forget" the deliberate mass killings of non-Muslims. Which makes me think that either you are determined not to let inconvenient facts stay in the way of your pet theories, or you refuse to include Christians in your body count because you don't consider them truly human. I had an Arab fellow student who openly denied human status to Westerners. As you guess, such attitudes don't help at all in curbing people's Islamophobia.
Also, it is an infortunate fact that Kosovars proved to be not a bit better than Serbs. Even Bosnians disappointed me. During and after the Bosnian war, some European analysts pointed how important it was to help Bosnians, not only from humanitarian point of view but also because Bosnia could set an example of moderate Islam for other Muslim countries. Unfortunately, it turned the other way round. Bosnia expressed protest about Danish cartoons, and Bosnian women put on headscarves. (Yes, here you were right and I was wrong.)
So people like me are in the position, after supporting interventions in favour of Bosnians and Kosovars in the 90s, now to fear these same nations.

Curt from Houston said...

All this talk of racism and Islamophobia is making my head spin since I just watched a little ditty on YouTube called "Undercover Mosque". You guys and gals in the rational Muslim world might just want to give it a quick look see and see what we in the unbeliever world are seeing.

NOMAD said...

the arab conquistadors had berber mercenaries to fight for them, through Andalucia till Poitiers.

Fortunately the Franks contained them

as far the bosnian and kosovar thing, misinterpretation of their goals must be put on our westerny naivete : The Serbs have been purposely demonised, good to undermine a russian allie, that allowed an Nato intervention, bombing Serbia, while Clinton traffiqued arms with the jihadists in Bosnia and the mafiosi kosovars, Bush pushing for their independance, thus make sure there will be a mine for ulterior fights in EU, so that Big American brother still can control EU

links can be provided to any request

The Lost Libyano said...

Conquistadors?

I beg to differ Nomad.

The east German Christian Vandals from Andalucía who invaded Berber North Africa three hundred years prior to operation Iberian liberation where for all practical purposes ‘Conquistadors’.

The Arab and Berber Muslims who went to Andalucía where merely being good Samaritans; for they where invited by the Iberians(the heirs of the late King Wittiza)to help bring an end to the political turmoil plaguing the region.

The Serbs have been purposely demonized

How So? Did the United States government somehow perpetrate the genocide's of the Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo and then lay the blame on the Serbs and the Orthodox Christian Church?

The Serbs demonized their own damn selves.

So that Big American brother still can control EU

I agree the United States actions in the Balkans where by no means Altruistic.