Wednesday, May 30, 2007

An interesting visit

Libya was one of the African countries slated for Blair's visit ,which is exactly what happened as the premier and his wife landed in Tripoli yesterday.
After his arrival several large business deals took place. The first being the signing of a contract with BP which has not been present on the Libyan scene for the last 30 years. The concession they obtained is immense.

"For comparison, the acreage awarded in the North Ghadames block alone is the size of Kuwait. The acreage in the offshore Sirt basin is the size of Belgium or nearly three North Sea quadrants. In total the acreage is more than ten times the size of BP-operated Block 31 in Angola where BP has announced 14 discoveries so far, or more than 2000 Gulf of Mexico deepwater blocks. " [more].

Economic investment should be good news but what I can't figure out is why does Libya need to buy weapons ? We are hailed as an ally against terror so we need to spend large sums on defence contracts ? I think that's such a waste of money, I feel we are kind of forced into it as these are the deals which are almost the most lucrative...sigh .. all this money could be used for so much other more important things like environment and health etc..


It is a good PR move that he visited the family of the Libyan AIDS children as it is not often that I see sympathy or care shown to them in the media but only to the Bulgarian nurse and without the Palestinian doctor.

"Later Mr Blair met relatives of the 400 Libyan children who were allegedly deliberately infected with the HIV virus by five Bulgarian nurses and a Palestinian doctor in 1998.
The medical personnel, who say they were made scapegoats for poor hospital hygiene, face the death sentence.
Mr Blair said relatives ( I hope he means relatives of the children ? ) had suffered a great tragedy and told them there was much sympathy for them in the UK. "

So I might venture that just for that his visit has some positive points.

I wonder who the next PM will be ?

42 comments:

Anglo-Libyan said...

Gordon Brown is taking over on the 27 June.

I agree with both of your points about the weapons and Mr. Blair's visit to the forgotten families of the Aids children, for a change I saw them mentioned on BBC!

Anonymous said...

Nothing good comes out of Libya, all I see is that Libyan citizen financial situation has got worse not better. Libyans are living in fantasy island if they believe things will get better. Keep on dreaming

MusicLover

programmer craig said...

Hi there, H-

About the visit to the children:

Later Mr Blair met relatives of the 400 Libyan children who were allegedly deliberately infected with the HIV virus by five Bulgarian nurses and a Palestinian doctor in 1998.

The nurses have been convicted. Yet, the BBC says "allegedly" - the BBC is probably the most liberal major media organization in Europe. And even they make it clear they believe Libya has perpetrated in injustice on the Bulgarian nurses.

This is a public relation nightmare that will NEVER go away, Highlander.

How many AIDS patients and their relatives did Mr Blair visit here in the US, last time he was here? The fact that you (and Anglo-Libyan) seem to have EXPECTED Blair to publicly show sympathy and solidarity with Libyan AIDS patients and their families shows that you have bought into the political nature of this case.

Aren't there children with HIV/AIDS in Britain that Blair should be visiting? Face it, Q (and Libyans in general) are playing this for all it's worth. And that's what disturbs me more than the actual injustice of what Libya has done to guest workers - it's the reaction of ordinary Libyans.

Well, I've talked about this about 5 times too many already, so I'll move on.

Economic investment should be good news but what I can't figure out is why does Libya need to buy weapons ?

I agree. What does Libya need weapons for? Especially tanks, jets, etc? However, if Q wants to buy weapons it is his prerogative to do so. Perhaps he just feels that after so many years of sanctions, the Libyan military is in need of an upgrade?

Is there any chance that Libya will become involved in African peacekeeping missions? That would be a definite plus, in my book. There is much need for African peacekeeping forces.

Do you feel that the British are forcing Libya to sign these weapons contracts? That's the vibe I'm getting from you. It may be true that the Brits are exerting some kind of leverage... Britain is not the normal "go-to guy" for buying arms. I would have thought Russia or China.

red said...

Heard about it briefly on the news yesterday on BBC and Al-Jazeera English. That will be good investment for both countries & a booming economy for Libya in the future if have not at present.

Read on Khadija teri's blof that the average income of a Libyan is 250 Libyan dinar. If I were to convert it to my country's currency that would be MYR 2000.00. (You could still survive with that much in your pocket over here, but not in Libya! It was expensive then, and I guess it still is!)

Brave Heart said...

i join ur concern, why for the weapons, but what i can say is it's the dirty face of British political values.as libyan we don't need this weapons anymore because we know how it will use for, but for the British gov, they are desperate of money to help BAE system survive

NOMAD said...

don't rely on a gentleman who is doing a promotional tour for his boss, isn't he replacing the last president of a bank ment to help African countries ? I wonder how much he will be paid for that

7mada said...

Yup, the arms trade is very lucrative - high commission for those middle men involved.

BP deal worth approx £436m - sounds cool - but Mr. G & his clan will split the money amongst themselves - the ordinary Libyan folk won't see improvement in national healthcare nor education.

5 or so years ago Mr. G was referred to as 'mad dog' and his country on the 'axis of evil' list and now he's a cool guy having tea and crumpets with Blair, Chirac & Co! It's all about the $£$£$£$ :-)

As for the AIDS case - thats all a show, we know who really injected those kids.


Take care Highlander,

Curt from Houston said...

Hi H. This sounds like overall good news for Libya. I just hope Mr. Khadafi does the right thing with the oil contracts. There is a very narrow window of opportunity for your country here and it is my fervent wish that your people make the best of it. I would just love to see you and yours happy and prosperous.

As for the weapons purchases, given the part of the world you live in, that may not be such a bad idea, as long as it's kept within reason. Perhaps some Israeli modified F16s would be in order. ;-) They're not exactly F22 Raptors, but they're a proven platform and are economical to maintain and still quite deadly.

In any case, I hope that Libya makes a spectacular reentry into the international community. Best wishes from Houston.

The Lost Libyano said...

WOW. I misread this Curt dude. I agree with him H, this is a narrow window for opportunity. I really hope it doesnt get flushed down the drain, I hope Libya looks more like The UAE, inshallah ya rabb. What else can I say, I hope it goes to building the country, fixing the streets, and bringing Libya into the 21century.

As far as the weapons are concerned, I do belive Libya was coaxed into buying them from the UK. Frankley we dont need them, and if we did like Craig said China and Russia, Especially Russia with this whole "New Arm's Race" deal would be more then willing to hook up Libya with some really nice gear, and China loves OIL, and as we see with Sudan they are looking for African partners. I really thought that with all the current signs and trends in the global arena Libya would have went that direction.

As far as ratboy(Blair).lol. I geuss we should take the apologies for what they are.lol.

Braveheart is right about British Political Values, as far as moral values no such thing exists in the atheist Secualr Humanist system. So Political Values are generally along the same lines.

Anonymous 5AM

Try to be a bit more up beat even if things seem dark. Pray harder.lol. God does listen even if it doesnt seem like it sometimes. Hopefully this deal will make thing better for the average Libyan. Pesimism= Weakness of faith. All Keep faith in God and hope in a better future alive.

Red's got a point which brings we to ask when is starbuck's coming? Because with that amount of income, your average Libyan will be homeless in a week.:P

All the Best wishes from The Lost Libyan across the atlantic.

ph said...

I had read about the oil contracts, but wasn't aware of the weapons deal or the visit to the AIDS children.... thanks for keeping us informed.

Curt from Houston said...

"As far as the weapons are concerned, I do believe Libya was coaxed into buying them from the UK. Frankly we don’t need them, and if we did..."

Thanks for the nod Lybiano. :-)

I really do wish the best for all people of the region.

As for the weapons purchases, every government has as a primary duty the legitimate protection of its citizens. This requires a constant evaluation of the threats facing the nation and the best possible use of resources to counter those threats given the limitations of those resources.

In other words, you don't necessarily need enough military power to defeat your antagonist. You just need enough to make him understand it's not worth the effort to attack you just yet.

Of course this is only a temporary measure against a truly determined adversary, but at least it buys you time to seek other avenues of strategy.

In short, it behooves every good government to keep it's powder modern and dry. :-)

Maya M said...

Programmer Craig has taken some words out of my mouth - why doesn't Blair visit families of British young AIDS victims, and why not families of children with, say, leukemia or primary imminodeficiency (other conditions that require expensive treatment and without it are rapidly lethal)... But I've written enough about this case on my blog, let's not continue here.
If you, Highlander, don't like much the idea of Libya giving money for British weapons, I hope you'll find some comfort if you hear that I like it even less. Britain and Libya had icy relations until very recently. British and Libyan societies have accepted different sets of values (though with Britain, I already doubt there are any values at all.) I don't say that Libya is going to attack Britain or a British ally tomorrow. But if it is your habit to sell weapons to people who have become your friends last night and who stand for things different from the things you stand for (and often quite opposite), sooner or later you will be in the situation of being shot at with weapons produced and sold by you. Europe is so preoccupied with short-term profits that it neglects its security and long-term interests. No wonder that more and more people think Europe is going to Hell. And perhaps this is the plase it should go to.

The Lost Libyano said...

Programmer Craig has taken some words out of my mouth - why doesn't Blair visit families of British young AIDS victims

Well Maya, i think because its a high profile case. Which Libya is known around the world for, and The Prime minister just wanted to show his sympathy and resolve with the Libyan people in this time of great trajedy and pain. one may also ask why did The Queen extend her condolenses to those who lost their lives at virginia tech, when their are 100's of Iraqi's dying daily because of Britins involvment in overthrowing a Stable and Secure Iraq?



British and Libyan societies have accepted different sets of values (though with Britain, I already doubt there are any values at all.)
I don't say that Libya is going to attack Britain or a British ally tomorrow. But if it is your habit to sell weapons to people who have become your friends last night and who stand for things different from the things you stand for (and often quite opposite), sooner or later you will be in the situation of being shot at with weapons produced and sold by you.

This is true Libyans and Britians have accepted diffrent sets of belifes and Morals.

Libya is a Islamic Nation, and Britain is a Secular progressive Nation. I dont know much about the SP religion, but Islam teaches us to befriend all peoples who are not hostile to us, and try to work toghther for a better future. I found your statements about the whole weapons issue a bit silly. Why would a nation of 5 Million people possibly use small arms, and inferior weaponary on a Nation With a Nuclear weapon?


No wonder that more and more people think Europe is going to Hell. And perhaps this is the plase it should go to.

Maya come on you are being a bit harsh, Europeans dont belive in hell its not part of the Secular Progressive Religion. Prophet Darwan's(Penut Butter and Jelly be upon Him)stated that when we die we just die, hell, heaven, these are illusions which we humans create to keep order in society

Is there any chance that Libya will become involved in African peacekeeping missions? That would be a definite plus, in my book. There is much need for African peacekeeping forces.

Well Craig I personally think Libya has done all it can do for the Sub-Saharean Peoples. We should leave them alone to sort out their own problems. As Muslims we have tried to help them by giving them money, by trying to resolve their conflicts, and opening up our country to them. If you go on our Presidents website you will see he has been all over the world trying to help people. Last Summer i belivehe went to India to help ease tensions between Muslims and Hindu's. our President tried to outline a peace plan for the Palistinians and The Israeli's, as well as countless other missions of peace inspired by our religion Islam.

Libya has been a very positive force for our Region and in the world. What Libya needs to do now is focus on Libya. We need to place importance on Health Care, The Education, The Economy, ect. And take care of our own people.

After this we can go out and help the our fellow Africans, and the rest of the world.

programmer craig said...

It's just not the same with moderation!

Adam said...

Hi H!
why does Libya need to buy weapons ?
This sort of international "I'll-scratch-your-back-if-you-scratch-mine-deal" is fairly common. I do strongly doubt that Q asked for the arms bit of deal. I think the it was more or less forced.

Hi Craig, I sort of like your altered ego :)

And even they make it clear they believe Libya has perpetrated in injustice on the Bulgarian nurses.

400 children have in fact been given AIDS infected blood. In your opinion what should Libya have done to that Palestinian doctor and the Bulgarian nurses? And how should some sort of justice be given to the 400 families?

Myself, honestly, I am not so sure, for one thing I am against the capital punishment. However, the nurses line of defense (blaming bad hygiene) sounds very weak to me. The AIDS virus is very weak outside bodily fluids.

This is a public relation nightmare that will NEVER go away, Highlander.

"Never" is a pretty strong word. Remember the Berlin wall? :) And actually you could be wrong. The fact that Blair paid that visit might be be an indication that Britain (and the EU) wants it to go away. Quite possible that the Bulgarian nurses will be reduced to chess pawns in the HUGE oil-for-arms-and-"friendship" deal.

And what if Q is willing to cut a deal in the hospital case?

From the New York Times:

Published: January 30, 2007
Libya will not execute five Bulgarian nurses and a Palestinian doctor sentenced to death last month, a son of the Libyan leader, [my edit: Col. Q], said in a newspaper interview, calling the verdicts unfair.

A Libyan court sentenced the six for intentionally infecting hundreds of children with H.I.V., the virus that causes AIDS, in a case that started eight years ago and has set off widespread international concern about its fairness.

Speaking to a Bulgarian newspaper, [Col Q's] son, Saif al-Islam, said a solution would be found soon to save the six and satisfy families of the infected children, but he gave no details.

''There will be no executions,'' said Mr. Islam, [Col. Q's] leading envoy. ''I hope there will be a happy end soon. My father is also against the executions.''

''The case went in the wrong direction from the very beginning,'' Mr. Islam said, adding that Libya had already discussed a plan with Germany and France. ''There were many manipulations in the original files, many errors. This is why we should seek a compromise.''

Adam said...

PC says: "It's just not the same with moderation!"

I wholeheartedly agree. I cannot but repeat my suggestion of "post moderation". As this:

Define clear posting rules: Let everybody post, and if a post contains anything out of line: ZAP! even if it is an otherwise great post. Just ZAP!

And there should be no need for being kind, as you have been before: "Mr Crazy, I want you to understand I deleted your post because of this or that".

Of course I could be wrong, but my guess is that with diminishing heat-waves you are actually filtering less and less these days.

However, in another shade of gray :), I could see one (other than sanitary) argument for moderation: that perhaps the discussion tends to stay a bit more on topic.

Nevertheless I lean towards the first view. Perhaps a bit less serious but surely more fun!

programmer craig said...

Adam,

However, the nurses line of defense (blaming bad hygiene) sounds very weak to me.

No, their defense is that they weren't responsible. And in fact, the preponderance of the evidence indicates the virus was in that hospital before the nurses were even in Libya, and that most of the children had HIV before the nurses were there, too.

The AIDS virus is very weak outside bodily fluids.

No, it isn't. The vast majority of non-sexually transmitted HIV is transmitted via infected needles. Back in the 1980s there were many cases here in the United States where people got infected by going to the dentist - improperly sterilized drills and needles.

You don't really sound very well informed about HIV or about this case, Adam. I suggest you read Maya's blog, she has written quite extensively about it.

I didn't read all the stuff you quoted. Libya's reputation is destroyed by this case. Whether the nurses are executed, or freed and paid compensation... if they can ever be compensated for what they have gone through. It's a disgusting travesty of justice, Adam.

Aren't you the big defender of human rights, buddy?

programmer craig said...

LW,

Why would a nation of 5 Million people possibly use small arms, and inferior weaponary on a Nation With a Nuclear weapon?

What do nuclear weapons have to do with anything? Have you been seeing a lot of nukes going off in any of the hotspots that nuclear powers are engaged in? I'm not endorsing Maya's statement, just pointing out that your counter was pretty lame.

Maya M said...

LL, you are of course free to praise the "security and stability" of Saddam's Iraq, but your praise is lost on me. I have experienced "security and stability" under a similar dictator.
By "Darwan" you mean Darwin, don't you? I cannot understand why nearly all people who disagree with me on major issues dislike Darwin. And where is your quote from? As far as I know, Darwin was a believing Christian.

Adam said...

(HL please delete if this is a duplicate.)

Craig,
The vast majority of non-sexually transmitted HIV is transmitted via infected needles.

Yeah, if we count the drug addicts and such. Fact: The AIDS virus in a needle IS killed by sterilization. You wouldn't suggest that the nurses didn't sterilize, would you?

... the preponderance of the evidence indicates the virus was in that hospital before the nurses were even in Libya

Yes quite possible that it was in the blood, and that might have arrived before the doctor and the nurses. But whose job was it to check and double check the blood?

programmer craig said...

Did you hear about this, Highlander?


Libya memo sparks Lockerbie man fears

The memorandum was signed in Sirte in Libya on May 29 at the start of Blair's farewell tour of Africa but, contrary to usual practice, was accompanied by no fanfare.

The Foreign Office said the memorandum committed both sides to start negotiations soon and conclude them within a year.

Subjects to be included were cooperation on criminal, civil and commercial law, extradition and prisoner transfer.


I think that's the biggest thing to come out of Blair's visit. And, I don't like it. I view this as a sell-out attempt to protect British nationals from (unjust) prosecution in Libya. And I think it exposes Libyans and dual Nationals in Britain to (possibly political) extradition requests from the Libyan government.

I think this agreement on judicial co-operation is morally wrong. If Britain is so concerned that British nationals in Libya are at risk, they should address the issue publicly and politically, not by negotiating an under-the-table "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" agreement.

The Lost Libyano said...

Hey Maya

LL, you are of course free to praise the "security and stability" of Saddam's Iraq, but your praise is lost on me. I have experienced "security and stability" under a similar dictator.

Well it might have not been Paradise, but people where not risking their lives everytime they went out to their front poarch, thats for sure. Sunni's and shia's inter-married, girls went to school and work without having to worry about being raped, and killed by gang members, militias, and generally depravied people, of whom thanks to the Extra-Ordinary psychological strain of loss in iraq are in a great number.

When Saddam was in power, Children went out and played without having to worry about being kidnapped on their bikes, and being cut up into a hunder peices and shipped to their mothers, and fathers. Dont even get me started, I feel sick as it is. Saddam was the ruler, and he was the best ruler for Iraq. And I stand by that. Democracy is a product of Social Evolution. And the US invasion set that evolution back about a billion years. Just as the Mongols before them set back the evolution, and in that matter, the Mongols like the Americans set back our Social Evolutiopn, or Social Progression back in the whole Muslim world not just Iraq. The Inasion has done nothing more then made us stick closer and support the dictators more. They at least keep us generally safe and secure. Westerners know this thats why everytime Islamist's hit the poll's a great attack happens, which scares people into supporting their leaders.

Ofcourse those leaders are under the favor of the West, but you never know, who falls in their favor tommorow. Let us not forget Once the political Islamic movement where concidered great freedom fighters in the west. Hey fellow fundamentalists, Regann's fave. They are nutty just like him. And then when you cant control them and your puppets get a mind of their own

they go from Freedom Fighters to evil Islamofacists.

The West underminded the Arab left, and they got a radical angry, and oppressed right which has come to bite them in the ass.

All in all chap's LEAVE US THE HELL ALONE.

I stand with the Iranian left on this one. If the West invades Iran it will do nothing more then spill massive casualities for them, and cause the Iranian's to rally behind their leaders. This is the Middle East not the west people have a sense of loyality here. When a outsider attacks, society huddles toghther, it gets in protective mode, and any new ideas, a deemed inovations of the enemy. And Cultural and Religouse Fundamentalism reach a all time high, aand thus when the smoke clear's if we where in the 13century when we began, we are in the bloody stone age when its done with. Keep your freedom to yourself will ya. it may be a nobel concept, but when it comes in the form of a gun it becomes perverted and never again shall it be redemable.

programmer craig said...

Adam,

Yeah, if we count the drug addicts and such. Fact: The AIDS virus in a needle IS killed by sterilization. You wouldn't suggest that the nurses didn't sterilize, would you?

Somebody, clearly didn't. The question is "who?" and then "when?" and then once the correct people are identified as being responsible, "what is the appropriate punishment?".

Adam, this has happened in every country. Libya is not the only place where an HIV epidemic has broken out and spread in a clinic. This is the only case I know of where there has been a political witch hunt and a kangaroo court, though/

Yes quite possible that it was in the blood, and that might have arrived before the doctor and the nurses. But whose job was it to check and double check the blood?

Probably NOT the nurses, Adam! Nurses are not generally trained as lab technicians, you know! And if nurses weer being told to check blood for HIV, that could explain the problem, in itself!

Also, that is not the evidence. The evidence is that there was an ACTIVE epidemic in that hospital, before the nurses arrived. And that many of the children were already HIV positive, before the nurses arrived.

Now, I ask again... where is your concern for human rights? Justice?

Highlander said...

Anglo Libyan I agree with you it's good to see the kids being given some recognition even if it is hypocritical.

Anon 0500 Thanks for the encouragement.

Programmer Craig :)

How many AIDS patients and their relatives did Mr Blair visit here in the US, last time he was here? The fact that you (and Anglo-Libyan) seem to have EXPECTED Blair to publicly show sympathy and solidarity with Libyan AIDS patients and their families shows that you have bought into the political nature of this case.


Like it or not the case was/is/has become politicized the whole world is interceding for the nurse ( not the Palestinian doctor :P ). Because of this the case of these children is not comparable to that of other ill kids because their lives have become pawns and like it or not they ARE victims.
I don't expect Blair to show any sympathy or make any statements but when he did no matter what the reasons behind it are I admit it does warm the heart a little that someone paid them some attention instead of using them simply as bargaining chips.

On the other hand the media over-represents the Bulgarians and hardly represents the Libyan children. But in the end human and humanity are two different concept we are all human and so do feel primarily for our own. However, we need to go to the next level to feel for the other as well :)

With regards to weapons I feel that we do not need weapons, if our neighbours decided to overrun us they could do that and no matter how much weapons we have we would not win. It is better to make business ties as those are the things that glue toghether. If other countries decided to invade us and they were non-neighbouring then our weapons would be useless because the entity which sells them to us would make sure not to give us the really best of the best. Hence in my opinion it's better to save this cash- which means yes I don't feel this is a kosher deal :P

Red, the business in specific sectors only will boom there is no real plan for development. I'm hoping someone has a brain though and seizes this opportunity.
Average Libyan income is still 250 Libyan Dinars yep and it is no longer sufficient unless you are moolighting or doing other jobs.

Braveheart you've nailed it salem fumek - "BAE system survive".

7mada long time no see my friend!
As for the AIDS case - thats all a show, we know who really injected those kids.

I agree, but it does not deviate from the fact that these children are the primary victims and it is heartening to see them mentioned on the BBC.

Curt from Houston, I am totally against any weapons except for something needed for peacekeeping in Africa no F16 or F22 or any of that... enough of filling the third world with weapons which in the end are useless ...nah technology and education is better that's what will bring democracy not weapons.
But thank you for your good wishes :)


Lost Libyano :) although I like starbucks I really hope it does not come too soon -we have too many coffee shops and tabouna places.

PH you're welcome :)

Maya :) why doesn't Blair visit families of British young AIDS victims, and why not families of children with, say, leukemia or primary imminodeficiency (other conditions that require expensive treatment and without it are rapidly lethal)... But I've written enough about this case on my blog, let's not continue here.

I guess I've already explained above.

As for the weapons sale - the merchants of war have no soul they sell wherever there is a good chance and will even create a war to sell some more .

Adam this is it This sort of international "I'll-scratch-your-back-if-you-scratch-mine-deal" is fairly common 100%


Craig Libya's reputation is destroyed by this case. Whether the nurses are executed, or freed and paid compensation.

Allow me to disagree :)

lovelytripoli said...

اهو قال يجي يحصله كم شنطه معبيه زي غيره من وراء صغارنا ربي يسترنا وخلاص

ماتعرفيش مرات تجي

lovelytripoli said...

هونا حتي بوش بعد ماتلاقي مع رئيس بلغاريا طلب من ليبيا تفرج عالممرضات
قداش مناسهم غاليين و احني صغارنا رخاص

حسبنا الله ونعم الوكيل

Maya M said...

Highlander, I first was about to ask you about the Palestinian doctor al Hajuj - did you mean that the world was sympathetic to him, or the reverse? (Because I didn't understand quite from the post.) However, I fugured out you must have meant lack of sympathy. Thank you for clarifying.
I agree with you that Libya's reputation is not destroyed forever (therefore in my blog I said "long-term PR disaster", not "eternal"). As time passes, new events happen and bury older ones deeper in memory. I suppose that non-Bulgarians, when hearing about Bulgaria, don't think only of the Bulgarian umbrella, the forced renaming of our Turks and the alleged participation of Bulgaria in the attempted murder of Pope John Paul II (I say "alleged" because it was not proven and I don't know myself what to think about it; however, it was proven that Bulgaria had given material support to the Turkish terrorists.)
About the weapons - I've read shortly before the sanctions were lifted that Western countries were looking forward to the lifting because they were eager "to buy oil from Libya and to sell weapons to it". So now sanctions are lifted, oil is bought and weapons are sold. In fact, besides profit, Europeans reportedly have another reason to sell weapons to Libya. They want it to tighten its border security because are flooded by asylum seekers coming illegally from it (mainly non-Libyans using Libya as a transit). You know Libyans are unhappy to have so many of these illegals; Europe doesn't want them either, for the same reasons. But once they get to Europe, they cannot so easily be sent back because their reasons to want asylum are legitimate; so the solution is to ask and equip Libya to detect them as they are trying to escape their hell and send them immediately back to the hell, so that their misery doesn't trouble the good Europeans.
LL, there are some points in what you are writing, but as usually, you dissolve them in - let me say it politely - stuff I could never agree with, and in open contradictions. You say in the beginning that under Saddam, "Sunni's and shia's inter-married" (context: and now they keep killing each other) and at the end, "when a outsider attacks, society huddles toghther". As for the "Leave us alone" appeal, it seems to me outdated in our globalizing world. Did anybody leave Israel alone? Or Denmark alone?

lovelytripoli said...

By the way i have posted new photes after i met with breav heart. i thought u need to know.

Adam said...

Hi PC,
Libya's reputation is destroyed by this case. Whether the nurses are executed, or freed and paid compensation

Eh really? “Destroyed”? Big word again, that is. I daresay: large majority of the people in the western world (living normal lives outside the ME blogosphere) have not registered the events of Benghazi hospital case at all. That majority does not give diddely squat. So they will hardly change their opinion of Q-man-land. A minority people, such as you, are very well informed. Did this case change your esteem of Libya? I would be really surprised if your own esteem of it ever was high? Was it? If so, I wonder exactly what part of your own view of Libya was there left to be “destroyed”?

Adam said...

And Craig, you keep asking me:
Now, I ask again... where is your concern for human rights? Justice?

Those are two good questions, and for me two different ones. Human rights and justice. If we for arguments sake assume that there has been a politically motivated mistrial (I never said there wasn’t), or a “kangaroo court”, leading to the conviction of half a dozen completely innocent people. Yes, if that is the case, it is unfair. And also, a mistrial and a violation of justice. So is every other mistrial and unjust ruling in the world. Every unfairly convicted man in the world is has been subject to a violation of justice. We could for example examine the case of the Birmingham Six.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six

Six innocent men were jailed on fabricated evidence for 16 years, in the dark years of the UK vs the IRA. That was another kangaroo court, politically motivated, and a huge violation of justice.

However, for me the term Human Rights is bigger, I do reserve it for larger groups of people. (For example 435, as of November 2006).

The Lost Libyano said...

stuff I could never agree with, and in open contradictions. You say in the beginning that under Saddam, "Sunni's and shia's inter-married" (context: and now they keep killing each other) and at the end, "when a outsider attacks, society huddles toghther".

You missed my point Maya as you always do. Homogenus Societies gather behind their leaders.

Iraq is a extreamly complex issue. you ripped the very glue which held it toghther, not to mention, it was the west who strated the fire that set off the blaze known as the secraterian war, in hopes that US troops would not sustain mass casualities.

If the Iraqi people where to unify, well....... chared courpse's hanging from bridges would be the least of the occupational force's worries. If it was not for Iran Iraq would become a graveyard for Coilation Troops. Imagine if Sustani took time out of his busy scedual of fixing up temperory marriages between Iranian youths.....

As for the "Leave us alone" appeal, it seems to me outdated in our globalizing world.

.............................


the solution is to ask and equip Libya to detect them as they are trying to escape their hell and send them immediately back to the hell, so that their misery doesn't trouble the good Europeans.

Maya my dear Bulgerian Friend it is you who is engaging in the act of open contridiction, eh?

Globalization:P your desires to keep African's out of Europe seems..... outdated in our Globalized world.:) Have you ever had Nigerian efo,or Gbegiri? Hmmmm you will love it. Enjoy :P

programmer craig said...

Highlander,

Allow me to disagree :)

Of course, you can disagree all you wish. But people have long memories. The Americans who will forget the images of Palestinians dancing in the streets as the World Trade center was falling have not even been born yet, for instance.

This is not really such a "big deal" as that... but it is pretty bad. Most especially what is bad about it (to me) is the reaction I see form apparently ordinary and well educated Libyans on the blogs.

As for the Palestinian doctor... see my earlier comment about the World Trade Center falling as Palestinians rejoiced. I prefer not to defend him. Sorry. Since Palestinians are so near and dear to the hearts of all Arabs that they are willing to commit murders in Palestinian causes, Arabs can defend him. Right?

We have lots of US-educated Palestinian doctors here. If you have a shortage, perhaps some sort of exchange program can be worked out?

Brave Heart said...

Slam Highlander,u confused me, i tried for long minutes to find translation to this (salem fumek) finally i got it, its very nice libyan english

Maya M said...

LL, now I don't understand you! You wrote, "Globalization:P your desires to keep African's out of Europe seems..... outdated in our Globalized world.:) Have you ever had Nigerian efo,or Gbegiri? Hmmmm you will love it. Enjoy :P"
For what exactly you are ironizing me, for my "desire to keep Africans out of Europe" or for my readiness to coexist with people of Nigerian origin?
I think people who have their home are obliged to help those who have lost it. I am for giving asylum and against keeping innocent people in hell. My remark about the "good Europeans" was irony. And if the refugees become so numerous that Europe can be overwhelmed, then the hell should be invaded and fixed (by NATO, by US, by Europe, by UN, by anybody).
At the same time, I am against uncontrolled immigration. A state should defend its identity. Otherwise, it is not a state at all, just a continuation of other states. Is my opinion so contradictory?
I haven't met a Nigerian, but I have had fellow students from Angola and Mali. They were quite like everybody else. So I don't understand what you are implying.

programmer craig said...

LW,

If it was not for Iran Iraq would become a graveyard for Coilation Troops.

Yeah. Right. And Iran is helping us so much because they like us, correct?

I wish the Sunni insurgents and the Shia militias *would* enter into open battle against US forces. Then, we could kill them. And Iraq would instantly become a better place. The Mahdi Army tried it in 2004 and got mauled pretty badly. The "insurgents" tried it in Falluja, and got mauled pretty badly. If you can figure out a way to encourage them to get back to the business of attacking US forces openly rather than with roadside bombs, I encourage you to do so. 50,000 dead terrorists in Iraq would do the world a lot of good.

Adam,

Did this case change your esteem of Libya? I would be really surprised if your own esteem of it ever was high? Was it?

Actually I find Libyans among the most open-minded of Muslims. That's my personal opinion, of course. How is this any of your business, though?

If so, I wonder exactly what part of your own view of Libya was there left to be “destroyed”?

My opinion of Libya was at it's lowest back in the mid 1980s, when I was an infantryman in the US Marines, and there was a very real possibility I would have been in an invasion force, if things had continued to escalate.

My opinion has improved substantially, since then. Because of actions Q has taken, and because of positive experiences with Libyan bloggers - highlander not least among them. This is my favorite blog, and it has been for a couple years. But then since my opinion has improved mostly because of personal experience with Libyans, it is bound to go down again when I see those very same Libyan bloggers being supportive of something I see as a complete miscarriage of justice, and a racially motivated one, at that. No?

Again, how is this any of your business? Do you feel like you know me, Adam? I've never seen you anywhere except on this blog, and I don't like the opinions you've stated. You've made accusations against Israelis that were flatly untrue - and were easily shown to be untrue just by doing a Google search for news articles. You seem either very ignorant of the issue of Palestine/Israel, or you are deliberately dishonest.

On to the human rights and justice...

Those are two good questions, and for me two different ones.
Human rights and justice.


How is it that in your mind, these are two different issues? The very concept of "human rights" is to set an absolute MINIMUM standard of just treatment for all human beings.

If we for arguments sake assume that there has been a politically motivated mistrial (I never said there wasn’t), or a “kangaroo court”, leading to the conviction of half a dozen completely innocent people. Yes, if that is the case, it is unfair. And also, a mistrial and a violation of justice. So is every other mistrial and unjust ruling in the world. Every unfairly convicted man in the world is has been subject to a violation of justice.

Do I have to quote the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to you, again? *sigh*

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Violation. This prosecution is based on politics, country of origin, race, jurisdiction and probably sex.

Article 5.

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Violation. Rape and torture.

Article 7.

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Violation. Libyans bloggers themselves have been inciting this very discrimination, in addition to the Libyan government.

Article 8.

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Violation. The nurses case against their rapists and torturers was summarily dismissed.

Article 12.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Violation. The Libyan authorities assassinated the character of the nurses, in too many ways to count.

Do I need to go on? Or can you read it for yourself, Adam?

However, for me the term Human Rights is bigger, I do reserve it for larger groups of people. (For example 435, as of November 2006).

Then, you don't understand what human rights are. They are *individual* rights, possessed by all humans, by virtue of their humanity.

How can you call yourself a champion of human rights, Adam?

Adam said...

PC,
How can you call yourself a champion of human rights, Adam?

I never did. I stated personal views, and presented them as such. And I mentioned the term only after you did twice.

The Lost Libyano said...

Yeah. Right. And Iran is helping us so much because they like us, correct?

No. They are helping you by keeping the average Ali worshipper off the street, because they wish to instill a ShiaThocracy, and hopefully export it throught the region.


I agree, but it does not deviate from the fact that these children are the primary victims and it is heartening to see them mentioned on the BBC.

WHAT! You have got to be kidding me. You yourself do not belive the Bulgerian Nurses are guilty, and you expect the BBC a European news organization to show sympathy to the Arab children who where killed by their fellow arab's and not to show sympathy to their fellow European's who have been scapegoated, raped, and tortured???!!!!!

MINDBOGGOLING. According to you and 7mad the children died by their own people's hands, and you expect the European world who has been scapegoated in this instance to fell sorry for your dead arab children????

And you are put off because so much coverage to the Bulgerian Nurses and not the "Palistinian Doctor"???

Are you people INSANE? And you are complaining about the lack of coverage the outsider's of whom you have transgressed against to show you sympathy, after what you have done????


Do I have to quote the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to you, again? *sigh*


Dont bother craig. Adam like most people only picks and chooses what he wants to follow. he only picks and chooses that which will meet his needs. He and the palistinian's will violate what ever they wish, and they will quote it when the other violate's it's baseless meaningless declarations. just as France and the EU will ignore freedom of speach when it come's to Holocost denial and arrest individual's who dare mock, question, or deny the Supremecy of World Jewery, and scream into high heaven about free speach when the Egyptian government gives Kareem a four year sentence for "insulting Islam". Maybe the Egyptian government is better in this instance, for they have no arrested all those who deny Islam's truth, only those who mock it's sacreed figure's. In my twenty years in this strange place, I have realized Human's are some of the most hypocritical creature's in God's kingdom, they are truley honorless weather they come from the east or the west.

Hishma ya Highlander, seriosly. You should have been quite about the whole thing, and put your head down in shame if you felt that we the Libyan's where the one's who transgred against the Bulgerian's. But to come out admit it, and deemand symphathy from them, and on top of that put a statement like this out.
Mr Blair said relatives ( I hope he means relatives of the children ? )
Do you think such Sly remarks are appropriate??!!!

Shin Al-Dulum Hatha? Do you people even belive in God and the Hearafter? If not then surley you must have some honor? la howlilla, you people are truley deranged.

programmer craig said...

LW, is this the kind of Viking Metal you were talking about before?

TYR - Regin Smiður

Seems like odd taste in music, for a berber. But who knows, maybe it's that Vandal blood, kicking in, eh? ;P

I posted this link over on Shlemazl's blog for a white-supremacist dude, but then I recalled you said you were a big fan of this stuff, too.

Maya M said...

I think from the context it is quite clear that Mr. Blair was talking about the children's relatives. It would be tactless and counterproductive to talk about the nurses' and the Palestinian doctor's relatives in LIBYA. But, after LL raised the question, I think that having a loved one on death row also amounts to "tragedy".
About Dr. Hajuj - I see the point of Programmer Craig and at the same time I find it sad that the effective rights of a human being, and hence his perceived value, depend on where he is from. Recently, a sister of Hajuj was in Bulgaria and was briefly shown on TV. (The family is now living in the Netherlands.) Her appearance on TV also saddened me, because she had dyed her hair blonde, changed the shape of her eyebrows and otherwise had made herself look like a native European. I am always happy to see an Arab making a pro-Western civilizational choice, but when somebody goes so far as distinguishing herself physically from her former people, I see it as a sign of experienced suffering and hopelessness I cannot even imagine.

The Lost Libyano said...

lol. Yeah I geuss I have a bit of King Geiseric in me.In anycase TYR is a Amazing band, I really enjoyed Ragnarok. I am a HUGE fan of Northern European Folk Metal, well pretty much Folk Metal in general. But their is something Magical about Northern Europen culture, music, and especially Northern Mythology. It's the best form of Mythology their is, in my opinion. Yes strange coming from a Berber.lol. I am a huge fan of Band's like Equilibrium, Amon Amarth,Korpiklaani,Myrkvar,Ensiferum,Ásmegin, Enslaved, ect. and all that good stuff.lol. I enjoy it all. Ofcourse I am also into stuff from the Middle East, stuff like Melechesh, Mezarkabul, Litham, ect. I enjoy verdict Metal as well. Dude all Ethnic Folk Metal is amazing. So many culture's, so much diversity. Their are some very good "Arab" real Arab bands from Yemen and Saudi Arabia, not North Africa, or the Leviant. Which mix their tribal drums, and the lot with heavy guitars, very good stuff, to say the least.

programmer craig said...

LW,

lol. Yeah I geuss I have a bit of King Geiseric in me.In anycase TYR is a Amazing band, I really enjoyed Ragnarok.

I just looked for "Ragnarok" on YouTube, but I could only find a live version that was a crappy recording :(

While I did that I checked on that Regin Smiður ong I linked before. It's a 12th century ballad!

Regin Smiður =
Regin Smider =
Regin Smither =
Regin Smith =

Regin the Blacksmith

It's amazing how much English has in common with Norse. Even the sound of it... that song sounds exactly like English to me, except I can't understand the words. The long vowels and smooth consonants are much more similar to English than German is.

The harsh consonants and guttural vowels of German sound quite different from English, I listen to a band like Rammstein and it's obvious to me that's a different language, even though I can understand about half of the words.

Strange how the German dialects have evolved. I guess it makes since English is closer to Danish and Norse, since 2 of 3 three tribes that comprised the Anglo-Saxon confederation were Scandinavian.

Anyway, glad you got me started looking listening to this stuff. Gonna see what else I can find :)

PS-welcome back H :D

programmer craig said...

The zionists killed Mickey Mouse!? Say it ain't so :(

Hamas 'Mickey Mouse' killed off

The Hamas-affiliated al-Aqsa channel aired the last episode on Friday, showing the character, Farfur, being beaten to death by an "Israeli agent".