Friday, June 29, 2007

Of blogging, non-blogging and other matters


Dear All,

I admit I've been extremely irregular in my updates. I've missed my own monthly round up of the Libyan blogosphere, the best comment and the top 3 readers for more than two months now. I'm not bored with blogging I'm just very tired because I have a lot going on for me in family and at work and that's keeping me superbusy.

I miss the blogs and my friends and readers, I miss the interaction but not the fights :P I will ask you to be a little bit more patiend with me and I hope to be in full form again. I'm not ill nor depressed nor in trouble :) . I just have so much to do in my career that blogging has slipped down on the priority list. It is now or never to build a strong base to go forward then I can rest a bit on my laurels LOL.

I do hope you won't abandon me because I still have many stories in my pocket for you.

In the meantime I would like to say that I have been so engrossed in work and other issues that I totally missed the news about the hurricane coming to Oman . I'm relieved to see blogger Lebeeya is well. May God bless all those who died in the ensuing floods. this is so scary because most Arab countries are not equipped for even a simply winter heavy rain. Look at Tripoli in winter we drawn.

Another important news is the car accident that Trabilsia's son was involved in. Salamtu Tarek ! I am so glad he is out of danger now ! I hope Lebeeya and Trabilsia would forgive me and don't think I was being callous I was not around that's all - sometimes in areas with no internet connection. However, today I can breath easier hamdillah... God is always so merciful in whatever he decides ..

On the other hand it is heartwarming to see the Libyan bloggers doing so well I can disappear in peace and discreetly and the blogosphere will be fine ( mission accomplished LOL - I'm so arrogant). Basically no one noticed my lack of blogging he he he...

Libyan bloggers have been having lots of fun with challenging each other to show their feet and footwear and their desktops ( hattip Safia- but please follow all her links if you are curious). Anyway here is my desktop and my footwear which was a challenge launched a year ago ....This was Safia's older contribution :P - Sorry Saf the newer Libyan bloggers have not seen this gem he he he . These posts reminded me of some happier times on my blog.. many of those readers, commenters and bloggers are no longer around .....You are all missed dearly.

Some fans are worried that other blogs have become more famous, I'm not worried because fame is not my aim - I'm very happy with the way things are :)

Well I'm back, so bear with me .

86 comments:

PH said...

welcome back :).

Highlander said...

Thank you :)

mani said...

you were dearly missed highlander.. does this mean blogging has now moved up a notch on your priority list again? :)

Highlander said...

Thanks Mani :) yes it has

programmer craig said...

Good to see you on the blog again, Highlander :)

programmer craig said...

No moderation, yet! Yay :D

Anonymous said...

were you held up by that project
highlander? How did it go?
Hope all is well

DM

Highlander said...

Thanks Programmer_Craig :)

DM - long time no see man - there were 20 projects since we last spoke :P

Trabilsia said...

Hi there Highlander!
Welcome back.....
Really missed you, and as for my son , Im happy to say is doing ok, Alhamulilah.

Think youre being callous, never crossed my mind.
I always ask Mani and Akram`about you. Really would like a get together of Libyan Bloggers in Tripoli. What do you say ???

May Allah bless you and your family my dear.

Khadijateri said...

Nice to see you blogging again...

:)

7mada said...

Undisputable Blogg Champion = Highlander :-)
I may not post any comments but I always check up on yours.
All the best to you & your family.

Chris in MB said...

"I'm not ill nor depressed nor in trouble :)"
Oh yeah? so how come you asked me for prison bail money then!?!
*kidding*:P

But I just have one important question... what's with the Libyan watermelon up top?
Is that Libya's national fruit? or you just like then a lot? :P

Adam said...

Hi Hi :D

Frankly I don't miss dem fights either, but it is really nice to see you back here. Always.

Of course developments in the high courts, related to the Benghazi case, and your previous thread, will be closely monitored. If I remember correctly, an official decision/statement is to be expected in early/mid July. Still a few few sparks there that could ignite stuff.

My humble and highly personal guess is that a dramatic shift in the official line is due.

BTW: Browser built-in spell check recognizes "Benghazi", WOW! Honestly, who would have expected that ?

Adam said...

No moderation, yet! Yay :D

I concur.
:)

red said...

Hey H,
Glad to hear from you. Miss you dearly.

Keepsmile5 said...

welcome back and nice to see you again in Bloggers' World

Romana said...

heey, loved ur blog..just came across it from someone else's favourite list...

i JUST LOVED your labell, Prophet Muhammad's Farewell Sermon... i loved ur choice...

Highlander said...

Trabilsia , thanks it's so good to see you here my dear. Mani does keep me abreast as well - I love the idea of a blogger get toghether in Tripoli Why don't you all arrange the time and place and let me know :)

Khadijateri thank you for your sweet words.

7mada :) you are flattering many thanks my brother I just wish you start blogging again !

Chris in mb LOL @ prison bail money thanks for sending it man you saved my life and warden was surprised who bailed me all the way from Canada :P

The Libyan watermelon is a very important part of Libyan culture it is so savoury sweet tasty and vibrant red that we have Europeans and other foreigners smuggling it on the airplane as cabin luggage in summer. So this was Libyano's idea to make it a logo for the Libyan bloggers - easily identifiable and clear label that we are Libyans :P

Adam thank you so much my friend yes I concur that we shall see a dramatic shift all the signs are there.

Moderation will soon be back at the first sign of anything resembling a fight.

Red Enclave I am so thrilled you are commenting :) please please did you see my note about your blog on Adam's I'm really having technnical problems over there.

Keepsmiles5 Thank you :)

Romana :) welcome to my blog - I've seen a few of your comments on the Libyan blogs and I'm happy to see you came over to check mine out - you have great potential yourself as a wonderful blogger.

AlanK said...

highlander

compared to myself, u have been a regularly well up to date blogger

typical took something like that happening at the airport (only live 10-15 mins away) to bring me back out again

hopefully that will be the last of that sort of incident

also what is your opinion on al megrahi being sent home, here personally in favour, as dont believe he was guilty in the first place (which is what the courts now appear to be thinking too)

programmer craig said...

AlanK,

also what is your opinion on al megrahi being sent home, here personally in favour, as dont believe he was guilty in the first place

I heard something on the news about this today. What the US networks are saying is that the review of his case is a determination of the appropriateness of the sentence, and determination about whether some of the evidence was valid. It doesn't sound (from what's being said in the US media) like release is in the cards.

However, if you mean that "Memorandum of Understanding" that H mentioned a month or so ago, between UK and Libya, your first minister spoke out pretty strongly on that:

'No deal' over Lockerbie bomber

He said that "at no stage" was the Scottish government made aware of the memorandum, despite the deal being struck on 29 May.

Addressing MSPs, he said: "I have today written to the prime minister expressing my concern that it was felt appropriate for the UK government to sign such a memorandum on matters clearly devolved to Scotland, without any opportunity for this government and indeed this parliament to contribute."


I hope you and Adam are not thinking this man's case will be parlayed in regards to the nurses. If that happens, you guys (UK citizens) are (in my humble opinion) going to find yourselves in quite a predicament in coming years.

programmer craig said...

Yep... there's some smoke there...

On June 9, 2007 rumours of a possible prisoner swap deal involving Megrahi were strenuously denied by prime minister, Tony Blair

Abdel Basset Ali al-Megrahi

If the Scottish courts cut him loose, or transfer him to Libyan custody, and at the same time there's a "sudden" reversal on the Benghazi case, you guys are royally screwed.

It is interesting now, looking back on Highlander's post about Blair's visit. The way he visited the families of the infected Children, and signed this mysterious "memo of understanding" pertaining to extradition, jurisdiction, so on and so forth. It kinda smells wrong.

Don't be like Germany, who released this man:

Mohammed Ali Hammadi

Mohammed Ali Hammadi (Arabic: محمد علي حمادي) aka Mohammed Ali Hamadi and Mohammed Ali Hamadei, (born June 13, 1964 in Lebanon) is a Lebanese citizen and alleged member of Hezbollah (aka Lebanese Hizballah), who was convicted in a West German court of law of air piracy, murder, and possession of explosives for his part in the June 14, 1985 skyjacking of TWA Flight 847.

They forgot torture and terrorism. In anny case, the Germans didn't even consult the US even though it was a US air carrier hijacked in international airspace, and the murdered man was an American. We still want him for prosecution. He's back in Lebanon now, and back in Hezbollah.

Why was he released?

There has been speculation that his parole was granted as part of a covert prisoner swap, in exchange for the release of Susanne Osthoff. Taken hostage in Iraq a month prior, Osthoff was released the week of Hammadi's parole.

Nice to have friends like the Germans, isn't it?

Don't be like the Germans, Alan.

Even if you do believe this man al megrahi is innocent, the current climate makes it all but impossible for the UK to release him, or to even do a prisoner swap. It stinks of extortion.

programmer craig said...

Also, this could very well happen:

As of February 14, 2006 the United States federal government, through the ambassador to Lebanon, had formally asked the Lebanese government to extradite Mohammed Ali Hammadi for the murder of Robert Stethem during the 1985 hijacking.

On February 24, 2006, he joined his accomplices on the FBI's Most Wanted Terrorists list, under the name Mohammed Ali Hamadei. All four fugitives from TWA Flight 847 still remain on the list, and at large.

On September 12, 2006, a "Bush administration official" indicated that Hammadi had rejoined Hezbollah upon his release from German prison.

On February 12, 2007, the FBI announced a new $5 million reward for information leading to the recapture of Hammadi.


The whole thing would be back at square one. 189 of the 270 victims were Americans.

mani said...

Programmer Craig.. did you read the document I sent you a few months back??

programmer craig said...

Mani, I started it but haven't finished it yet. I'm glad you reminded me, I've had it "starred" in gmail for months but forgot all about it.

programmer craig said...

Mani, I just sent you an e-mail about that document. It's good stuff, I'm about half way through now :)

Safia speaks said...

Just don´t wait another month ´till next blog entry, okay?!
Your absence has given me headaches...

Anglo-Libyan said...

I have been a bit busy over the weekend and missed your latest post.
so good to see you back and to know that you are well and I am looking forward to more intersting stories and your top blogs and bloggers that keep us all on our toes, great stuff from one of the favourite Libyan bloggers :o)

red said...

Red Enclave I am so thrilled you are commenting :) please please did you see my note about your blog on Adam's I'm really having technnical problems over there.

Give it another try, if you still face problems do inform me. Have made some changes in my dashboard.

Maya M said...

I am glad that you are OK, Highlander. My advice: blog when you can. Offline life wants its due.
About Megrahi: I agree with Programmer Craig. When he (Megrahi) was sentenced, I've read an article in the Lebanese "Daily Star" paper that there was no solid evidence of his guilt. I am not well informed of the process, so I cannot say. Of course my opinion is that if there has been reasonable doubt about his guilt, he mustn't have been convicted in the first place - and if convicted, must have been released later. I cannot say what should be done if data about reasonable doubt acumulate at this very sensitive moment. An interesting ethical question: Is it justified to keep an innocent person in prison "just" because his release would spell big trouble for at least one country?
Here in Bulgaria, many people (the nurses' relations are first among them) think that Megrahi is guilty but nevertheless should be traded for our nurses. It is said, "the British must show humanism instead of thinking only of their interests." This pisses me off. True compassion, as well as true cognition, are so rare on our world.

The Lost Libyano said...

Hey Highlander

Welcome back! God we have all missed u sooo much! Seriosly dude you should offer us some sort of patch to break our addiction's, or at least some sort of AA like forum where we can discuss our feeling of highlander withdrawl.lol. Hi my name is LW and I am a highlanderholic:P In anycase its greeeeeeeaaaat to see u back!

I love the idea of a blogger get toghether in Tripoli Why don't you all arrange the time and place and let me know :)

Sounds like a awsome idea, but wait a couple week's cuz I wanna come!

Oh yeah? so how come you asked me for prison bail money then!?!

Chris. lol. she asked me to stage a breakout.lol. :P

The Libyan watermelon is a very important part of Libyan culture it is so savoury sweet tasty and vibrant red that we have Europeans and other foreigners smuggling it on the airplane as cabin luggage in summer. So this was Libyano's idea to make it a logo for the Libyan bloggers - easily identifiable and clear label that we are Libyans :P

True that but cant we have a more.... masculine symbol. Like a Rat-tailed Ottoman Miquelet Pistol over a Mideval Sword with the word's "Libyan Bloggers, beware, grrrrrr; send us tribute via paypall or else :)

NOMAD said...

may-be H, you could translate this article of "Iran resist"

Lokerbie and Tenere

programmer craig said...

That article doesn't claim he isn't guilty, Nomad. It only claims that he isn't the only guilty party. But, that's obvious.

As far as Iran and Palestinian militants being involved, that wouldn't be out of character. The PLO and Iran have worked with each other many times over the decades. And, I might point out - Libya also worked with Iran many times, back in the 1980s.

There are hundreds of things we believe Iran is indirectly responsible for, Nomad. What do you expect us to do about it? We're already going to war with Iran sometime soon over it's past transgressions and current bad intent, especially with their building of nuclear weapons. If there was some kind of other action the US could take against Iran, I'm certain we would have a long time ago. Iran responds to nothing but force.

Ghazi Gheblawi said...

I used to like eating watermelons, but since that long summer while in a scouts camp I ate a whole big melon alone with a spoon, I had the severe tommy cramps and off course the nasty things with it I stopped eating them, here in the U.K melons are shame compared to those in Libya.. hope to read more posts soon
Ghazi

Highlander said...

Alan K, it's good to see you here my friend and first fan, but it is sad that it was the Glascgow airport accident that got you out of your hiatus. That was terrible the recent terror intended attacks- could have been tragic. I'm not sure why I feel that there is too much of a coincidence after Gordon's appointment especially in Scotland this looks fishy to me - and it was also near the anniversary of 7/7. You know I'm a fan of some conspiracy theories. But it is a relief that no one was hurt in the process and the criminals if found need to be hanged.

As for Al M being sent home well it would be lest trouble for your gov to take care of him and if guilty he could complete his prison sentence here I guarantee it won't be as comfortable as in Scotland.


Programmer Craig, There are two theories bandied about:

(1) which has always been pursued since the beginning before the nurses issues and any of that high profile stuff namely that the evidence has been fabricated/planted and that it is at the most circumstitial (sp ? ) and flimsy. The lawyers have always pleaded Al-M's innocence.

(2) The second and more politicised theory now in view of the Children with AIDS issue is the suspicion of a brokered deal...

It is not something new that a case be appealed and a ruling reversed when evidence is more clear- so would you advocate Al-M be left to rot in prison if innocent just because it might be convenient for the West ? I thought you wanted Justice for the nurses- i.e. full acquital since you believe they are innocent although country stability and face saving would require that they not be innocent right so I hope you are not advocatin a double standard here :P It should be Justice for all ( I know they is a heavy metal song somewhere - offtopic sorry ).

One more thing. As a consequence of possible innocence of Al - M it would result in the fact that Libya should be considered innocent of Lockerbie which would entail an expected full apology from the West and especially the US and Britain. The re-imbursement of the compensation money paid to the Lockerbie. Compensation to Libya for harm done during the sanctions years in terms of lives, health, education, lost time in travel, ruined technology, bankrupt airlines, ruined airport, moral compensation for every bit suffered by any Libyan who has been insulted for being a terrorist and all sorts of other lawsuits and the total isolation and negative press that Libya has received as a result of that horrible Lockerbie crash. Moreover the true culprits would have to be found again and this should be more careful lest we accuse another INNOCENT party againt ... So if 189 of the victims were Americans my dear friend and Al-M and by extension Libya is found innocent I'm not sure who will be exactly royally s****ed :) There are a lot of ifs here so let's wait and see and not start with the speculation as this could go in several directions. But thank you for your comment and arguments the way you put them forth does carry logic.

Hey Mani thanks for dropping by :)

Safia thank you I'm sorry I caused you headaches :(

Anglo Libya thank you so much brother :)

Red Thank you I'll try again, eveytime you change your template I get even more and more confused LOL.

Maya M Yes I agree with you that if not guilty he should not have been convicted. Please see my reply to Craig above it does answer your question about ethics as we can reverse the process with regards to the Bulgarian nurses. I don't think there should be any trade- but I don't see anything wrong in him serving his sentence back home that would not be trade. Trade would be a non guilty for a non guilty sentence.

Lost Libyano :) good to see you back about bloggers meeting check other Libyan blogs too I won't be the one to initiate it I left this task to Trabilsia and Mani but I would be happy to be invited and attend if my agenda allows me :P

LOL @ breakout well I'm glad everyone is ready to help me so heartwarming.
Watermelon is really a great icon for Libyans !

Nomad yes the Iranians is one strong theory :) especially with regards to possible deals about their nuclear processing as implied here from your link.

"Bons nombres de procès qui impliquent les services secrets du régime des Mollahs avaient été mis en sommeil ces dernières années pour plaire aux Mollahs et créer la « Confiance » si nécessaire pour aboutir à un accord sur le nucléaire."


Hi again Craig :) actually the article claims that the Iranians guilt might have been dropped for the more politically correct theory of the Libyans because of the Nuclear issue in Iran. Also at that time Libya was seen already in a horrible light and was not as important strategically or in strenght as the Iranians plus it had had a sound beating by the earlier US raid on Tripoli cities so it was more useful to see that as a kind of retaliation and to get rid of Libya's perceived 'biting' once and for all. Then Iran could be dealt with another time. So maybe that is why the US preferred to delay the response to Iran then and hit two stones with one bird Libya then Iran. What do you think ? scenarios can support many different ideas.

Ghazi, so sorry about your bad experience with watermelons. I shall be posting more soon.

programmer craig said...

Hi H, thanks for the reply.

It is not something new that a case be appealed and a ruling reversed when evidence is more clear- so would you advocate Al-M be left to rot in prison if innocent just because it might be convenient for the West ?

You're right. Cases do get over-turned on appeal from time to time. It seems to me that people are already speculating that this case WILL BE over-turned on appeal, entirely for political reasons.

That, Highlander, is not justice.

If he's not guilty, he's not guilty. There should be no political considerations in the case.

I thought you wanted Justice for the nurses- i.e. full acquital since you believe they are innocent although country stability and face saving would require that they not be innocent right so I hope you are not advocatin a double standard here :P

I'm not familiar with the evidence in the Lockerbie case. I am familiar with the evidence re: the Bulgarian nurses. There is much more than a "reasonable doubt" about the guilt of those nurses. They would never be convicted in any just court.

If you are claiming the Scottish courts are unjust, then perhaps he should be retried in the US courts. Since it was an American aircraft, and 2/3 of the victims were Americans.

One more thing. As a consequence of possible innocence of Al - M it would result in the fact that Libya should be considered innocent of Lockerbie which would entail an expected full apology from the West and especially the US and Britain.

I don't think the US would consider him "innocent" if the Scottish courts set him free. That as my point. I think he'd go on the FBI most wanted list the day Scotland released him. Which would be a nightmare scenario for Great Britain, the US and Libya.

The re-imbursement of the compensation money paid to the Lockerbie. Compensation to Libya for harm done during the sanctions years in terms of lives, health, education, lost time in travel, ruined technology, bankrupt airlines, ruined airport, moral compensation for every bit suffered by any Libyan who has been insulted for being a terrorist and all sorts of other lawsuits and the total isolation and negative press that Libya has received as a result of that horrible Lockerbie crash.

Libya has been involved in a lot more than the Lockerbie "crash" in the 1970s and 1980s, Highlander. As you well know.

I read a story today that Syria and Iran are trying to draw Libya back into the terrorism game, specifically in Lebanon re: the Palestinian camps.

That is a game Libya played for 20 years. Lets hope Q doesn't go along, this time.

Moreover the true culprits would have to be found again and this should be more careful lest we accuse another INNOCENT party againt ...

And who might that be? And on what basis do you claim he is innocent?

So if 189 of the victims were Americans my dear friend and Al-M and by extension Libya is found innocent I'm not sure who will be exactly royally s****ed :)

Libya will be royally screwed, because the US will most likely not accept a politically motivated acquittal. Europe and the US would also be screwed, because this would be one more nail in the coffin for US-EU relations.

actually the article claims that the Iranians guilt might have been dropped for the more politically correct theory of the Libyans because of the Nuclear issue in Iran.

Iran had no known nuclear program in the 1980s and 1990s, Highlander. So that theory makes no sense, really. That is an Iranina dissident site so of course they want to let Libya off the hook, and point the finger at the IRI.

Also at that time Libya was seen already in a horrible light and was not as important strategically or in strenght as the Iranians plus it had had a sound beating by the earlier US raid on Tripoli cities so it was more useful to see that as a kind of retaliation and to get rid of Libya's perceived 'biting' once and for all.

You may be right. On the other hand, Libya might actually *gasp* have been responsible. The Lockerbie bombing took place less than 2 years after the 1986 bombing you mentioned. Seems like a pretty good motivation, to me. And Libya was deeply steeped in international terrorism in the 1980s.

I've said the Iranians may have *also been involved* - not that Libya wasn't. I haven't seen anybody realistically claim that Libya wasn't involved in Lockerbie.

Then Iran could be dealt with another time.

What other time? The US has wanted the IRI gone since 1979. Iran is not situated either geographically or politically in a way that it is easy for the US to accomplish that. Specifically, Iran has the support of the Russians and the Chinese (and before Russia, the USSR). And not only that, Iran has never been isolated by the Europeans in anything but rhetoric.

So maybe that is why the US preferred to delay the response to Iran then and hit two stones with one bird Libya then Iran. What do you think ? scenarios can support many different ideas.

To use Iranian terms... to the US, Iran is the "great satan". Libya was one of the "little satans", along with Palestinian militant groups, Syria and Lebanon.

I can't really explain US policy during the 1980s for dealing with terrorism in the ME. It seems to me that the US was always reacting, rather than acting. I believe current US policy is to take down the IRI, because it is the heart of the problem. And then see what things look like with no more Islamic Republic of Iran.

LovelyHibo said...

I MISSED U ALOT,I WAS WORRY ABOUT YOU.
AND U DONT` ANSWEAR MY OFFLINE MESSAGES,
i hope you re in fine health,and in happy modd ya rab

piccolina said...

welcome back :)

a_akak said...

Thank You For Being You

I think the lack of posts does make a person stop visiting a blog frequently but i am a true admirer of your blog and may we see many many many posts to come

Plus u like the fairy god mother now ;)

Fe Aman Allah

NOMAD said...

H, your refering to Pierre Pean investigations (quoted by Iran resist), but Pierre Pean is quite sulphurous by us, someone who is kind of going under the spot lights ; I am afraid the victims will never know, or in a few decades, what was really going on.
Anyway the release or the guiltyness was a tractation between Lybia and Americans, and by extension, UN for the end of the boycott.

another lightening (in french)

Craig said...

Nomad,

I am afraid the victims will never know, or in a few decades, what was really going on.

They will never know, period. There was never any chance that anyone would learn the truth, because the people who know the truth have non reason to tell it.

Same as every other terrorist attack.

In a few decades, less will be known than is known now. These things don't get more clear with time. They get more murky.

Lebeeya said...

Welcome back highlander! You have been missed. Glad to see you are alive and kicking :)

Hoping to see more posts soon...

Maya M said...

It wouldn't be realistic to demand full acquittal of the Bulgarian nurses. They could be convicted of negligence or pardoned. In the same way, I think that if Al-M. is innocent or, to be precise, if there appears reasonable doubt over the evidence leading to his conviction, a way out for him must be found. Sergey Antonov, the Bulgarian charged in Italy for the attempted murder of Pope John Paul II, was cleared due to "lack of proof" (the habitual phrase in Italian courts is "lack of guilt"). The Afghan apostate Abdulrahman was acquitted as insane. I don't know what could a way out for Al-M. look like. However, it seems that nobody is looking for a way out. I've done a quick Web search on the subject and I see that the Western public opinion is being instead conditioned towards a full acquittal. I agree that a person with some likelihood to be innocent mustn't stay in prison, but such a development would be disastrous. It's not about the "West's convenience", it's about human lives. Because hard-liners of both sides will never believe in his innocence. And while it doesn't matter how many Westerners continue to perceive him as guilty, the holy warriors, while speaking loudly about his innocence, will think, "Those infidels have nothing in their heads, you can kill 300 of them and get away with it. Hand me the clockwork!"
I won't bet my hand that Al-M. is innocent. If he is, I'll think this is despite the "new evidence" disputed now in all media, not because of it. This "evidence" has all the elements of the most persistent Western myths of recent time: the big bad USA deliberately (rather than by honest mistake) going after those innocents who are most suitable targets for the moment, retired CIA officers becoming whistleblowers (this agency's retirement rules definitely need scrutiny) and a conspiracy which managed to remain secret for many years despite involving dozens of people of all sorts. Not that it is impossible. No laws of physics forbid it. But it is highly unlikely. Besides, if it happened this way, why didn't CIA plant evidence also against Al-M.'s co-defendant and buy more reliable witnesses?
We must keep in mind that European culture is tolerant to evil. This helps to explain many things about Europe. E.g. the abolition of death penalty. I was all for it. It was said to me and others that death penalty isn't needed to protect the society from a murderer, because if the murder is a really grisly one (or more than one), he will be sentenced to life imprisonment without parole. And now, after we have abolished death penalty, we are said that no European country has life imprisonment without parole. Letting a murderer walk free after several years in prison is at the basis of today's European psyche. People are conditioned to perceive this as normal. So give people the benefit of the doubt, but beware evil. Don't count on anybody else to stop it. There is nobody.
I wonder, what has made the British reconsider the case? I don't think it's all about our nurses. Bulgaria, to my knowledge, has nothing as valuable to offer back. Some people talk about oil, this sounds to me more likely.
If several more events of this kind happen, they may have a side effect of turning USA into a rogue state. Because at the moment it harvests all the disadvantages of being (perceived as) a rogue state, and none of the benefits. It is a matter of time before somebody figures out, "After people accuse us in planting evidence anyway, why not actually do it?".

programmer craig said...

Good points, Maya.

It is a matter of time before somebody figures out, "After people accuse us in planting evidence anyway, why not actually do it?"

I suspect extra-judicial executions to be more likely than planting evidence. This used to be the accepted way for dealing with spies during the Cold War, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it became the "new normal" for dealing with terrorist suspects. Better they should be eliminate quietly than have public and politically charged show trials, and then they get released as soon as it's politically advantageous to let them go free.

I'm not advocating that. I'm just saying, I think it's coming. The Europeans got used to both the USSR and the US eliminating enemy agents in their countries, and I expect they'll quietly accept terrorists being dealt with the same way.

NOMAD said...

"In a few decades, less will be known than is known now. These things don't get more clear with time. They get more murky."


except that one or few retired CIA service men will write a book to improve their retirment wages, and historians will have some stuff to analyse and correlate, but, sure, the average population will have nothing to care about, the evenments would be too far away, and acualities change so quick

programmer craig said...

except that one or few retired CIA service men will write a book to improve their retirment wages

And French people will believe those books, no matter how far-fetched they are :P

and historians will have some stuff to analyse and correlate

No, historians will have to rely on the same second and third hand information that they had access to in the beginning. Which won't be good enough for them, so they will begin their revisions and their "perhaps" statements, and there will be fewer and fewer people around to dispute them. And those who did have inside information will have less and less recollection of what really happened.

, but, sure, the average population will have nothing to care about, the evenments would be too far away, and acualities change so quick

The "average" population will believe in their conspiracy theories that bear little resemblance to historical events.

Same as it ever was.

NOMAD said...

"And French people will believe those books, no matter how far-fetched they are"

I don't see a "scientifical" appreciation there, but I am in use to remarck it by now (even if you add a :P)

"No, historians will have to rely on the same second and third hand information that they had access to in the beginning. Which won't be good enough for them, so they will begin their revisions and their "perhaps" statements"

except the CIA will release, how do you call them again ? "declassified documents", and EU secret services, Mossad in Israel, may-be Lybians too, have more "classified" informations than you can ever imagine :P

programmer craig said...

I don't see a "scientifical" appreciation there, but I am in use to remarck it by now (even if you add a :P)

And I'm used to you criticizing my personality instead of my arguments. You did it for a year in e-mail and I let it slide, but now that you do it in public, I won't.

In any case, Nomad, you've always been ready to believe any fiction that made the United States look bad. No matter it's ill repute everywhere else in the world.

except the CIA will release, how do you call them again ? "declassified documents"

Right. Except thsoe things you believe in aren't "de-classified documents" - they are lies, told by former government officials with an ax to grind who can't get there message out here in the US because everyone is too busy laughing at them. But they sure has hell can peddle their wares to people liek you, can't they?

and EU secret services, Mossad in Israel, may-be Lybians too, have more "classified" informations than you can ever imagine :P

And they will make all that available to you. Because, they like you.

You are too old to be believing in fairy tales, Nomad.

NOMAD said...

Uhe, same I have to say about you though, talking like a "père-fouettard" does looks like you are "kif-kif bourrico" :P

programmer craig said...

Whatever, Nomad. I don't care enough about your opinions anymore to bother trying to translate that.

By the way, if you want to start shit with me I'd prefer you do it on another blog, so I can tell you what I really think of you.

NOMAD said...

so far your not H's housekeeper and your not her conscience too

that's why I still visit her blog

programmer craig said...

so far your not H's housekeeper and your not her conscience too

that's why I still visit her blog


You miss the point. I don't feel I can tell you what I really think of you, here, Nomad. I don't want to abuse Highlander's hospitality, and she has already said she will put moderation on again at the first sign of a fight. Don't start a fucking fight with me here, shrew. Start it someplace else.

http://iraqimojo.blogspot.com/

http://www.kabobfest.blogspot.com/

Try one of those two.

NOMAD said...

you did start the fight as everywhere ; those sites you mentionned are your trip, don't illusione yourself they aren't my cup of tea

if you don't stand me, forget me, as I do when I am not your turkish head of the moment ;

I will stop coming over if it's H's desire

programmer craig said...

Nomad,

you did start the fight as everywhere ;

Bullshit. I'm not the one who started in with the personal attacks. When you are wrong, the proper thing to do is say "I was mistaken". Insulting the person who has corrected you is never acceptable.Being French is no excuse for such uncivilized behavior.

those sites you mentionned are your trip, don't illusione yourself they aren't my cup of tea

Your "cup of tea" seems to be insulting Americans. That happens plenty on Mojo's blog, and it's a non-stop activity on Kaboom fest.

Seems to me you would fit in just fine.

if you don't stand me, forget me, as I do when I am not your turkish head of the moment ;

I can't stand you, it's true. I relegate people who betray friendships to the lowest possible status. I'd be happy if I never encountered you again. I no longer read your blog, I disbanded myself from the Nomad Owls blog, and I stopped reading every other blog I've seen you on in the past. I don't intend to stop reading Highlander's blog, just because you want to bring your sour and sarcastic self over here to stink up the place.

Just skip my comments, and don't attack my country, and we'll be fine. Can you manage that?

programmer craig said...

I'm not quoting the "deal" because there aren't any details yet. Just quoting the summation of the case, as presented by the Associated Press.

Deal struck in Libya foreign medics case


The prosecution insists that the six infected the children intentionally in experiments to find a cure for AIDS. Defense experts testified that the children were infected by unhygienic hospital conditions. In their testimony, the workers said the confessions used by the prosecution had been extracted under torture. Several of the nurses have said they were also raped to force confessions.

The medical workers were convicted and sentenced to death in 2004, but the Supreme Court ordered a retrial after an international outcry over the verdicts.

In a ruling that shocked many in Europe, the second trial ended with the same verdict in December despite a scientific report weeks earlier saying HIV was rampant in the hospital before the six began working there.

Two Libyans — a police officer and a doctor — were put on trial on charges of torturing them and were later acquitted — which led to the six medics being put on a new trial for defamation.


What do you think of that, Adam?

NOMAD said...

"I can't stand you, it's true. I relegate people who betray friendships to the lowest possible status. I'd be happy if I never encountered you again. I no longer read your blog, I disbanded myself from the Nomad Owls blog, and I stopped reading every other blog I've seen you on in the past. I don't intend to stop reading Highlander's blog, just because you want to bring your sour and sarcastic self over here to stink up the place"



"he, Aren't you better than this? "

pretty fair, you stopped reading Shlemzl' after he put you back where your stand : a pretending honest and humanitarian well-thinking man. It's the hospital which makes the charity fool (c'est l'hôpital qui se fout de la charité)

I didn't betray you, you thought I was under your protectorat ; you couldn't stand my rebellion ; history learnt us that protectorat
don't last ;

now I am free, and your are not diktating me what H so far didn't express

programmer craig said...

pretty fair, you stopped reading Shlemzl' after he put you back where your stand : a pretending honest and humanitarian well-thinking man. It's the hospital which makes the charity fool (c'est l'hôpital qui se fout de la charité)

You insult me in Shlemazl's name, now?

I didn't betray you blah blah blah...

Bullshit. You insulted my personality, much the way you have here, because I corrected you when you were wrong. And then you published an e-mail of mine in an attempt to discredit me. And that was when we were supposedly friends.

And when I told you in no uncertain terms that you had crossed the line, and that I expected an apology, you gave me a fake "I'm sorry you feel that way" apology. And then you continued insulting me.

Not once in the whole time did you ever send me an e-mail explaining yourself.

If that's not a betrayal of a friendship, I don't know what is. What kind of "friend" makes private e-mails public for the express purpose of trying and make people look bad? If a co-worker did that to me at work, I'd assume they were hostile to me. And so would anybody else. That's not acceptable behavior. And when I confronted you with it, you not only refused to apologize for what you ahd done, you threatened to do it again.

And to top it off, your English is so bad you didn't even realize that the e-mail you published actually said EXACTLY THE SAME THING as the comment I made that you were calling me a liar for.

Oh, yes, you called me a liar several times as well. Nice friendly behavior, isn't it?

now I am free, and your are not diktating me what H so far didn't express

I cut you loose a month ago, Nomad. You didn't notice? Take a hike, nasty French person.

programmer craig said...

By the way,

now I am free, and your are not diktating me what H so far didn't express

If you are so "free" why have invoked Highlander 4 times now? Do you need Highlander to tell you the proper way to behave? You are a lot older than she is, you know. Also you are a superior French type person, are you not?

You have chosen to fight with me on this blog just to cause Highlander stress. You could have started shit with me on Big Pharaoh's blog or any of a dozen other places, but you chose here. I suppose you call yourself a friend of hers, too, don't you? :O

NOMAD said...

craig, it's unsuseful to twist the words with your sick mind, our hostess is very patient to play the psychiatric nurse with you, so long !

programmer craig said...

That's too much, Nomad. Even for you. You are a hell of a one to talk about sick minds. Look at what you are doing here?

The Lost Libyano said...

Comeon Yall chill out, and jam some Justice for all.:P Speaking of Metallica, did anyone here about poor jame's getting grilled for his "Taliban Beard."looool. Eh, he looks more like a crazy chechyan then a mad mullah;P I wonder what Hegg from Amon Amarth goes through.lol.
http://www.themetalweb.com/aamarthjohanfatepromo.jpg


Your "cup of tea" seems to be insulting Americans. That happens plenty on Mojo's blog, and it's a non-stop activity on Kaboom fest.

lol. You do have a point. I personally am not a fan of Mojo's blog, but Kaboom fest read's like Angry Arab with a hipper twist. still waaaaay too much Pan-Arabism, and Secularism for me to stand.

Ahhh when will I find that perfect blog? They are all secular, tradtional, or fundamentalist. Were are the REAL Intelectually progressive Muslim blogs?
Their are great site like Ijtihad.org, altmuslim, ect. But no blogs

shlemazl said...

Just to clarify... I did not say or imply that Craig is "a pretending honest and humanitarian well-thinking man."

Highlander said...

Dear Craig and Nomad,

I am absolutely shocked at the turn of events on my blog since I have not checked if for a while now. It is very distresful on a personal level, because you are not just guests but friends, and I would hate to lose one or the other.Because of this I won't sweep this under the rug by deleting the comments.

However,I wish to point out that I've known Craig for several years and if there is anyone who has encouraged me to think that the US is worth a second chance then it is him. He was an excellent ambassador in my eyes.

Programmer_Craig is a mature man and hence very much capable to take care of himself and certainly does not need a 'nurse' let alone one from accross the Atlantic I'm sure.That was uncalled for Nomad.

On the other hand both of you have made some hateful personal attacks on each other and this is beneath you both - I wish never to see such things again.

Now having cleared that out of the way, I would appreciate if readers no matter how close their friendship with me is to please stop invoking me in their comments. I am not a referee. So you are being unfair and contributing to stressing me out.

This blog is still open to all.

Craig, Nomad I'd like to share with you my favourite part from Psalms it is Chapter 138 6-8:

"The LORD is on high, but cares for the lowly and knows the proud from afar.
Though I walk in the midst of dangers, you guard my life when my enemies rage. You stretch out your hand; your right hand saves me. The LORD is with me to the end. LORD, your love endures forever. Never forsake the work of your hands".

NOMAD said...

"That was uncalled for Nomad."

forgive me, I understand nothing, niente, nada, nitchts... rien ;
and I shall say nothing, niente,nada, nichts...rien

Maya M said...

LL, if you cannot find anything matching your high criteria for a perfect blog, I fear you have no choice but to write one :).
Or you are already doing it?
What impresses me most about your blogging is that every time I check it, I find a new blog!

Maya M said...

Oops! I see, moderation again!

The Lost Libyano said...

Craig, Nomad I'd like to share with you my favourite part from Psalms it is Chapter 138 6-8:


Oh thats just priceless Highlander. I would like to direct your attention to something, because I honestly want to know what you think. Go to this adress, and I want you to read the post, and the comments which are being left, and then I want you to reflect long and hard on them. After that I want your permission, sibce we are all sharing our favorite moment of Psalm's if I can share a few of my personal favorite passages.

Highlander said...

Dear Lost Libyano,

You forgot the link. FYI, 'WE' are not sharing our favourite passages. The last passage was addressed to Nomad and Craig only it does not concern anybody else. Any link you wish to share with me send it by email.

Thank you :)


Maya yes moderation is back again -it's funny when I don't have it people take the liberty to abuse each other and when I have it I have nothing to moderate because everyone once to see their comments up and so do stick to the topic. So to prevent my blood pressure from going up I'm reinstating it :P

NOMAD said...

"Le seigneur est aux cieux, mais surveille la pietaille et de loin voit venir l'artaban.

Cependant que je franchis mille et un pieges, il me sauve la mise de sa main adroite et attend que mes ennemis perdent la partie.

Seigneur je suis ta préférée pour l'éternité, et je te prie de ne pas oublier d'utiliser tes mains à bon escient"

bon ben c'est une gracieuse pirouette, mais effectivement tu n'avais pas le choix

rien aka red said...

h
this is my new add
http://globetrottingrien.wordpress.com/

The Lost Libyano said...

LL, if you cannot find anything matching your high criteria for a perfect blog, I fear you have no choice but to write one :).

I fear you are right maya. I wanted a Islamic Imazighen Metal Band, so I had to start one. But their are only so many hours in my day, what with school and everything that comes along with it, to create everything which their is a lack off in the world.

I have choosen to use what little leasure time I have in directing my creative power's in Music, Art and Storytelling. It Passes the time, and I find it rewarding.

I am not up to a Blog at this moment because I am still going through my Intellectual Development, my idea's and thoughts are caotic and reactionary right now. I have flirted with everything from National Socialism, to Pan-Islamism.

I am always reading new things, and I am always changing. I have most definatly made progress in my opinion from where I was two years ago.

God only knows where I will be at 30. Ten years is a long time, heck I might be a secular humanist.:)

Though I doubt it. I will most likley either go further down the spiritual path I am going towards now, or I will go the other way and become a complete and total Nihilist.

I really can not comprohend Secular Humanism, and anti-Theism.

I can not comprohend a reality in without a creator, a reality in which their is not some higher power who tells us how to react.

A Higher power who tells us what our purpose is, why are we here? What do we do while we are here?

Secular Ethic's make absolutly no sense to me.

How do I know what is right and wrong, how to act?

Why am I here?

If their is no divine power... No purpose to life.... then everything is meaningless.

And if everything is meaningless then everything goes. I sometimes put myself in the Secular Anti-Theist's shoes, and I ask myself for instance what makes murder wrong?

Their is no higher power to judge you, I mean if their is no higher being to set standard's, and punish you for breaking them, then all things go.

The Police and The Government can be overthorwn. They are human just like me, they eat, sleep, and breath too.

If I see someone who has something I like, why shouldnt I just beat the crap out of him and take it, if I am stronger then that individual?

Why should I respect a women? I am Physically stronger then her, I should beat her down and reign supreme.....for I am "fitter". Why should I be hindered by giving her rights? Who gives a weaker specimen rights? Thats insanity.

Why should I tolerate affirmative action? Best person for the Job, right?

This is what I think of when I hear of a Secular world.

I think kill all the weaker creature's and make yourself Supreame. At least until a fitter creature come's and kills you.

But then again whats the point of killing, or subjagating if in the end it doesnt even matter, if we fade away into nothingness??

What the hells the point?? NOTHING. Not to mention life is painful, and these emotion's which we have are pesky bugger's, why shouldnt we just end our existance, and be free from pain?

As of this moment I am trying to get a grasp on things, trying to find the truth behind everything, why I am here, what is the purpose, how am I supose to react with people around me, why do I do what it is I do, why do people do what they do, ect... I belive Islam is the answer, the question which is dawning on me is, what do the aspect's of Islam truley mean. I am trying to find the right interpertation, I am trying to understand the Divine maker's will. I geuss I am looking for guiadance, I am looking to learn not to teach, you get what I mean. I am looking to be influnced by older wiser people, I am looking to learn. Its hard because I have a tendency to be a smartass and a hyper now it all who shouts out his opinion's compulsivly, or at least thats the way I view myself, i am trying to teach myself to calm down and think things out, understand the WHOLE situation, ect, before I speak. Its very hard.lol. But I am determined to get their with a truck load of Ritilin, and Adderal if I need too. lol. Man I rant too much. All in all I think Athiesm is the cause of all the worlds problems "Islamic Extreamism" in most cases is not a fanatical love of God, its a Nihilistic Athiestic Ideology. The only Islamic thing about it is the imagery, its a ideology produced by Athiesm, and Fear of the Unknown. Suicide Bombing is a amazing example of it. "Islamic Extreamism" is nothing more then the Athiest Face of Region's which where Traditionally Islamic. They are no longer so, but the name and the image remain. Extreamism is also fueled by globalization and the fear of eradication of the sacred of a society, but what is astonishing to me is if that sacred is worth worshiping, if it is real and divine, then it should be able to defend itself, right? Its all part of the bigger plan which one belives in eh?

Thats why I say most "Islamic Extreamists" are Scared Nihilistic Athiest's. Well thats my though on it.


it's funny when I don't have it people take the liberty to abuse each other and when I have it I have nothing to moderate because everyone once to see their comments up and so do stick to the topic

See highlander you are a untouchable higher power, which we can not get our hands on and we know if we break your rules, we will be punished, and have our privalage of gracing your blog taken away. So we are good, and we are obidient and civil. And we fight our urge's to write all of the "Highlanderly Incorrect":P statement's and rant's. lool. And no I am not comparing you to God.:)

Maya M said...

Highlander, your remark about US being "worth a second chance" interested me much. I suppose your doubts about it are due to your personal experience. LL jokingly compared you to God; let me now try to compare you to the USA in an effort to grow some understanding.
In your blog, you are the sole superpower. You can moderate or have a laissez-faire policy. In the latter case, people almost immediately resort to the state of nature of human existence, that is, war of all against all (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellum_omnium_contra_omnes; no offense meant to Programmer Craig and Nomad, I have no independent information about how their unfortunate conflict developed, I can only say I am sorry and wish it hasn't happened.)
However, when you impose moderation, nobody is happy about it. Moreover, as you said, as long as moderation is used, it is impossible for you to prove that it is necessary, because people just don't send offensive comments. I've heard many people say that without the US messing up everywhere, nations of the world would just live happily in peace and harmony. To me, if you want to have a glimpse over the world without "Pax Americana", check pre-1945 European history.

Maya M said...

LL, what a nice long comment! You can copy-paste it into a blog post, after you have written it anyway. I have always known that you didn't really think many of the things you were writing.
Let me reply to your comment, beginning from the end.
First, please be careful with Ritalin and Adderall!
Your opinion that Islamic extremists are in fact atheists reminds me of an interesting article, "The Suicide Bombers Among Us", read it at http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20059, the author thinks the same.
Your statement that "Atheism is the cause of all the world's problems" amused me because I compared it to Hannu's "Religion is the source of all evil" (http://dregia.us/blog/2006/09/back-to-school-day.html) - and Hannu is an American of Libyan origin, like you! LOL.
I doubt that Islam is the answer to you. It has moral problems that seem to me impossible to solve. If you like, I'll give you the URLs of two Web sites that sealed my Islamophobia. Contact me on my blog, if you want this provocation - I don't want to write the URLs on Highlander's blog.
I don't agree that we need God to tell right from wrong. How will you know God's will? By reading an old book? Where is the proof that it is indeed from God? In fact, whatever Scripture you take, you'll find texts that don't seem to have been really "dictated" by God.
You have a brain to figure out what is right and what is wrong. If you are a believer, you'll think that God has given you this brain (either by mutations/natural selection or some other mechanism, your choice). But anyway, you have no other way to tell right from wrong. And if you were an atheist, you would use the same equipment.
I think that without religion, it is even more evident that murder is wrong. When a human is killed, this means premature termination of the only life he could ever have and forcing his soul to "fade away into the nothingness". Compare this idea to what an Islamist allegedly said when asked how he feels about children killed in terror acts: "It's OK, because they will go to Paradise." I don't say that all believers share this mentality, just that it exists in some.
But I agree with you that faith provides an easier answer to the question "Why am I here?".
BTW have you read Dostoevski? One of his characters also says, "If there is no God, then everything is allowed."
In fact, it is exactly the opposite: if there is no God, then man stands alone in his responsibility. A scary thought maybe. It is more comfortable to believe that there is a divine authority in charge.
I know people who are atheists and like to believe in UFOs. They try to find comfort in the idea that more advanced civilizations do exist in the Universe, keep an eye on us and if we make a too nasty mess on our poor little planet, they will intervene to save us from ourselves.
I don't believe in either sort of guardian. To me, Hercules with his great might and little control over it by reason is a good metaphor of mankind. So I often fear that everything will go to Hell. But I don't think I would feel more cheerful if I were a Muslim. It is written in the Koran that when a civilization doesn't meet the high requirements of God, He destroys it to replace it with something else. Not my favourite idea.

programmer craig said...

LW, your comment didn't actually seem totally insane. Keep up the good work :)

Hi Maya, good comments.

I don't agree that we need God to tell right from wrong.

Then where would such a concept come from? Natural altruism of the collective, or whatever the current atheistic theory is called?

What evidence do you have to support such an idea, after you remove spirituality from the equation? Primitive humans knew no such concept, and the norm for humans who didn't have advanced religious practices in ancient times was to exterminate or reduce to abject slavery a defeated people. The discovery of trade empires changed that practice, for some, but not for others. But Empires were and are based on megalomania and greed. What's ethical about that? And on a societal level, I don't think you can look at the histories of the ancients and find much evidence of people helping people, out of the goodness of their hearts, except when they had a religion that told them that that was the proper way to live.

How will you know God's will?

God's will is evident in people who are spiritually happy, and at peace. They are living the kind of life that they were meant to live. People who are angry, hateful, malicious... they are not. They do the work of the devil (or the opposite of God's will, if you prefer).

By reading an old book? Where is the proof that it is indeed from God?

I can only speak for Christianity but I think the proof that Jesus was divinely inspired is in that anybody who follows his teachings rigorously and completely, in every aspect of their life, will be a fully realized human being. Very close to what Jesus was. I believe Jesus was as close to God as a human can be, and I think it is the purpose of all humans to become closer to God.

I know many atheists/agnostics who vaguely believe in concepts like karma, reincarnation, and other similar spiritual beliefs they have created for themselves, but for the most part they simply redefine their beliefs on the fly to suit themselves. That's how you get people who usually behave well towards others but occasionally behave like monsters... they convince themselves that their target is unworthy of being treated as well as other people, and it's therefore OK for them to become vicious and spiteful.

That's what happens when an atheist who believes in "karma" tries to make their own rules for how to lead their lives. They do whatever the hell they want and blame everyone else for forcing them to do what they do. That way, they are always innocents. And never have anything to be sorry about.

I've seen it a thousand times.

In fairness, a lot of so-called Christians do the exact same thing. But in the case of Christians, it's very easy to point out where somebody has behaved in an un-Christian manner, and no *practicing* Christian can deny it with a clear conscience... I do it myself from time to time, but I always feel guilty when I treat somebody in a way that I know I shouldn't. And I usually end up trying to make it up to them, sooner or later. Because there is no way I can rationalize some of the things I do, when they are so clearly not part of my belief system.

Anyway... interesting take on things. I just disagree with you on the "God" part. I think LW raised valid questions, and I don't think there are any answers to those big questions that make sense, once a higher power is taken out of the picture.

NOMAD said...

on fairness of the animals

on altruism without heaven

on the understanding of the phonemes

C'est le plaisir d'avoir raison et de moucher l'adversaire qui gouverne ces tempêtes verbales, bien plus que le lent bonheur que donne la connaissance

du genie de l'orang-outan

You can moderate or have a laissez-faire policy. In the latter case, people almost immediately resort to the state of nature of human existence, that is, war of all against all

what would happen without a "God" ?


and "God" created the animals ... at the image of the humanoïds !

The Lost Libyano said...

Your opinion that Islamic extremists are in fact atheists reminds me of an interesting article, "The Suicide Bombers Among Us", read it at

why would I read something from FrontPageMag?

Those guys have worse moral's and ethics then the Sucidial Mental Patinet's?

Is Israel's human rights record is something I am supose to emmulate??? Look who is calling the Kettle black.

I doubt that Islam is the answer to you. It has moral problems that seem to me impossible to solve.

Whats your definition of morality Maya? What is the measuring stick that you are using? The Secular Humanist one? The one that changes every couple of years, the death penilty is evil, then its a force of good? Maya my friend I think you like most Athiest's are confused about "what is right and what is wrong".

If you like, I'll give you the URLs of two Web sites that sealed my Islamophobia.

what Faith Freedom, and Prophet Doom? lol. what can you show me that I have not read, and seen a billion times before? Robert Spencer, Danial Pipes, Bat Ye'or, Ibn Warrqa, and Ali Sina?

I have read it all over and over again. I love it when they use secular humanistic ethic's to judge Islam and tell me it is evil, and then on the next page they take up the cause of Judism! Lol. Islam is ultra-watered down Judism at least in they eyes of Secular Huamanism.

These people have never read the Old Testament or the Talmud.lool. Thats for sure. My Goodness the Hypocrisy!

I cant stand it. I am not saying I dont have some bad tendencies of hypocrisy, but whatever amount I have in me I want to work hard as possible to get rid of it, and I want to become a truley HONEST person. Thats the type of man I want to be, and thats the type of man I belive God Almighty wants me to strive to be.


2. Why should I join your side?

Lets say I agree that Islam is Evil. Why should I join the side of the west? Primative Ethic's tell me to return to my tribal root's the family, the tribe, and the Nation(race).

You forget Maya that I am a Berber..... I am the other side that they are talking about. I am not some European American Christian who has never heard anything about Islam and the Muslim's beside's that which I have been told. For Instance take Briddget Gabrial's statements in John Hagee's book on the "Grievences The Muslims have against the west" She states.

"They hate us because of our freedom, because a man respects his wife, and loves his daughter!.In Christiany we teach that we are supose to be good to our neighbor's and cherish our parents so that our day's may be long, its a completly diffrent teaching in Islam!"

When I read statements like that, I know what the deal is. Now lets take your point of view, that their is no good and all morality is made up, by dusty old books written by old men thousands of years ago.....


Why on earth would I allign myself with the side of Western Secualr Humanism, and seal my Islamophobia? I am a Berber, not a European..... My ancestor's embraced Islam in masse in the 7th century, they took up arm's against the Arabs in the 11th Century to defend the Sunni branch of the faith, and the Berber Identity. The way I see it is even if I didnt belive in God, I would take up the ammana(trust) that my forefather's left for me if anything......why did all of those great Berber's all over North Africa spill their blood for Freedom and Islam, why did Lalla Fatima engage in the Jihad, who am I a 20 yearold punk in the 21cetury to turn my back on 12,000+ years?

Thats what my "heart and natural instinct's which you atheist's love to glorify 24/7, my inherant good nature, free from religion tell me".

Ofcourse thats primative ethic's But it seem's like the most probabal system I would give loyality to if their was no God, but ofcourse even a primative system and outlook like that demands questions like, why am I here again? And why am I fighting for this or that, or giving my alligance to a certain ethnic cause?

think that without religion, it is even more evident that murder is wrong.

Well the 5PM news begs to differ with you Maya! Where did you come up with that asumption????? Where do you live? Seriosly. People will kill you like THAT! In a instant. It means nothing to them. Murder seem's if anything to be in the primative human beings nature. People will put a bullet in your head for a few quarters my Enlightened European friend. They will kill you for looking at them wrong, human life is worthless to the primative being. Killing someone is mearly a means to a end. If they like your shoes the rims on your car, your Ipod, your girlfriend or your wife, they will take it by force, if they are in a good mood they will beat you into submission and put a bullet in you if you resist, and if they are in their normal mood they will kill you to get rid of the chances that you try to resist them. Dont bring up the "Radical Islamists" example. Those people are nothing more then Middle Eastern/South Asiam gangbangers, take a look at Iraq. The only reason that the criminality manifests itself with Islamic Imagery in my opinion is because Islam is so deeply embeded in society. Good and Bad people will say Salaam to you on the street in a Muslim nation, its like saying hello, it means nothing. Those regions have undergone very diffrent social development, their are major Sociological and Psychological aspects of these areas to study and concider if one really wishes to make a accurate assesment of the sitruation. sunnis and shias are like the blood's and crips of the middle east, but its a diffrent society. tons of crips and bloods where crosses but do we take it that they are following Jesus's(PBUH) principal's???

Ofcourse not thats stupidity and insanity, no one seeking a ligitamate, honest, analysis of a situation will find it by going that road, most people who do so are looking to further demonize a certain group of people to their advantage. Back in the west during the Middle Ages their where tons of crazy bands running around with crosses,qouting the bible harrasiing local's and killing in masse, but is that because they where true religouse follower.lol. Ofcourse not they where mearly a Evil product which manifested with reigouse imagery because of the society they lived in.


I doubt that Islam is the answer to you.

Actually I find Islam has been the only answer for me when I am at rockbottom. Its really been the only true source of happiness in mylife, ist the only one that has given me the BIG PICTURE. so to speak. I will let you read some of my personal blog's on my journal Blog the Fallen Libyano, I keep it private because its VERY personal, but you should really read some of the blogs on their about my spirtuality. When I am in FULL Submission to God, I feel a sense of profound happiness and peace which I really can not explain, it as if I am overtaken by a spirit or something, I know it sounds weird maya, but I swear its the best feeling I have ever felt in my life, a feeling which brings tears of joy to my eyes, The feeling that I have literally been lifted from my bottomless pit of depression, anxiety, uneasiness, and despair that I reside in a good chunck of the time, its a unimaginable high those few moments when I have REAL faith, I feel happiness beyond what words can explain, I feel comfort, I feel safe and sound, like nothing will ever hurt me, all of the worries I had just go away, life has a new meaning maya,I SEE THE BIG PICTURE.


And all of the little things dude, they just dont matter, you dont stress because you know the meaning of life, you know your purpose, to worship God, to be a member of his diverse kingdom. Your existance means something. I have only felt like this maybe 3 times in my life, and I would do ANYTHING to feel it again. I would do anything to feel Gods love and presence in my life, because everything feels so AMAZING
I feel like hugging everyone I met, I feel a sense of profound goodness, a sense of optomism.


For so long I have been waiting for God to come into my life, but I think I have realized that God's arm's have been open all along, its just that I have been keeping away. Why? I dont know.... Because letting go is so hard, letting go of the hate, letting go of the anger, to break down the walls I have set around my heart, to get rid of my pride, to get rid of my racism, to get rid of my biases and prejudice's, it's a struggle, its a jihad, the greatest kind.

To struggle with one's self, to free your selfs from your own imposed chains of slavery, your desire's... and to submit to the will of God. Its the hardest thing to do.


How will you know God's will? By reading an old book? Where is the proof that it is indeed from God?

Well I can go on and on, but their is nothing I can tell you that Harun Yahya can't friend. Open your heart, Open your mind, let go of your prejudice's and visit http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/

I can tell you about the great
scientific miricales in the Quran, and I can debate the error's of darwanism with you, but in the end, if you close your heart, their is not much that can be done. God himself can come into your living room and you Athiest's still will not belive. Moses, Jesus, and all of the rest of the great Prophet's have split the sea's, and they have turned water healed the lepar's and the blind,
he brought back the dead, but still their were disbeliver's.

If you shut your heart then well, you cant be helped. One can pray for you to see the light, but you really have to look in yourself. Now for me I dont need Science to prove god, I mean its a good faith boaster, but I know he exist's because their is something deep inside me, its a connection, when I turn to him, its, dude its the most amazing feeling in the world . Thats all I can say.

Here's a video you should check out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpGs2SiBPCA

Highlander said...

Thank you all for your comments, it's wonderful to see you all write so much as it makes me feel good that there is some kind of debate. I'm just taking my time to reply as I need to think about all the topics raised :).

Maya M said...

Programmer Craig, I think the Golden Rule is generally a good compass to tell right from wrong.
Not absolutely, of course. After all, different people want different things. But in most cases it works.
Also, it is generally good to create and protect complex beautiful things and it is almost always evil to destroy them. Such as, to set a beautiful temple on fire in order to become famous or to cut down a forest without caring to sustain it in order to sell the wood and become rich. This rule is more difficult to formulate but not too problematic to use.
Maybe the sense of morality still comes from God even for those who deny His existence. Who knows? Not me. At any rate, you are right that all atheistic ethical constructions originate late and are based on religious ones.
What troubles me with the idea of religion telling people the proper way is that it could, with the same success, tell them some other way. And I think that has happened with some religions both in historical times and now.
Also, some religious people do good and abstain from evil not because they find it right, but to escape a punishment and receive a reward in afterlife. From practical point of view, this is OK, because it is more important that people behave than why they do it. But I'd prefer good to be done for its own sake.
I agree with you about Jesus, though I consider Him "only" a man.
Those "atheists believing in karma" sound to me rather strange. Karma is an element of Eastern religions, isn't it? If somebody believes in it, he has to convert to the respective religion and submit to its set of values and norms. You cannot have the goodies of two incompatible belief systems! At least if you want to be taken seriously. And no belief or lack thereof is a license to be an a**hole.

Maya M said...

LL, why are you so angry that I gave you a link to an article from FrontPageMag?
I read this site. I cannot give you links to sites I never read. I know FPM wouldn't be your favourite read. But people often learn things from sources they dislike and disagree with. I have learned things from Islamist sites. Not many things indeed, because these sites get on my nerves and so I visit them rarely and leave them quickly. But it wouldn't be an act of hostility if somebody gives me a link to such an article.
Why do you think that people who seek expert help in order to avoid suicide are all bad people? I assure you some of them have better ethics than the average happy coach potato.
I don't know whether I am a secular humanist. I don't put a label on myself.
I find nothing wrong with some confusion about what is right and what is wrong. It is people who never doubt about it who make me fear.
You are right that one of "my" sites is FaithFreedom. (The other one isn't among those listed.) After you have read it... well, I raise the white banner.
I don't think you want to become a truly honest person. I think you are now a more honest person than you want to be, and you want to become a happy person instead.
Joining the West was my choice and the choice of most my people. It was the best choice I could see, so I naturally recommend it. BTW Brigitte Gabriel wasn't born Westerner. She is from Lebanon.
Returning to one's tribal roots, excuse my rude expression, sounds to me much like "back to the trees". We have all been there.
Your mind is your license to turn your back to the past. If you wish.
You are right that primitive people resort easily to killing. But with Islamism, it is advanced people who do the same. This is why I dislike Islamism.
Please don't let me read your personal writings. I would read something put in public space, but if you let me read your "protected" works, this would later make you hate me.
I'd advise you to forget about the "errors of Darwinism". This is nonsense. Darwinism is a gold standard for me. I avoid talking with people who reject it. They have placed themselves outside the realm of reason and our languages cannot be translated into each other.
About whether I can be helped - I don't need help. The world does.

programmer craig said...

Hi Maya,

Programmer Craig, I think the Golden Rule is generally a good compass to tell right from wrong.
Not absolutely, of course. After all, different people want different things. But in most cases it works.


You don't mention where the "Golden Rule" comes from. It isn't Darwin, and it isn't the Natural Order. It comes to us from Jesus. It's a wonderfully concise encapsulation of Christian teachings.

That's what I don't understand about atheists who claim to believe in ethics and morality. They act as if these concepts have always been around and as if they are innately part of human nature. It isn't so.

Also, it is generally good to create and protect complex beautiful things and it is almost always evil to destroy them. Such as, to set a beautiful temple on fire in order to become famous or to cut down a forest without caring to sustain it in order to sell the wood and become rich.

And yet, what evidence do you have that atheists would ever place a high value on such things? None. Atheism is a modern phenomena. Nobody an know what the world would be after many successive generations of atheists have been in power, but I'm not looking forward to such a turn of events ever coming to pass.

This rule is more difficult to formulate but not too problematic to use.

Not too problematic, yet.

Maybe the sense of morality still comes from God even for those who deny His existence. Who knows? Not me. At any rate, you are right that all atheistic ethical constructions originate late and are based on religious ones.

Well, there are some codes of behavior that have been based on pure philosophy, even in the ancient world, but they never amounted to anything but academic exercises, as nobody ever put those philosophies into play in the real world.

What troubles me with the idea of religion telling people the proper way is that it could, with the same success, tell them some other way. And I think that has happened with some religions both in historical times and now.

I agree. I don't think Christianity as it is, is what Jesus intended, for instance. Not even close. But it is the responsibility of each individual Christian to find their own truths in what is written in the New Testament. That's my opinion, anyway.

Also, some religious people do good and abstain from evil not because they find it right, but to escape a punishment and receive a reward in afterlife. From practical point of view, this is OK, because it is more important that people behave than why they do it. But I'd prefer good to be done for its own sake.

Yes, there are many such people. Possibly, a majority. But I suspect they will be disappointed when they discover they haven't been doing God's work, after all. It's difficult for me to explain but I don't think (for Christianity at least) that the idea is to be good solely based on a selfish need to be comforted in the fear of death.

I agree with you about Jesus, though I consider Him "only" a man.
Those "atheists believing in karma" sound to me rather strange.


Me too! But I've yet to meet an actual pure atheist. It seems even atheist search for an answer to the big questions.

Karma is an element of Eastern religions, isn't it?

Yes, but some people claim Buddhism is a philosophy and not a religion. I consider it a religion, as it is spiritual in nature.

If somebody believes in it, he has to convert to the respective religion and submit to its set of values and norms. You cannot have the goodies of two incompatible belief systems!

I don't know about that! I like goodies! I can't find "karma" and "reincarnation" both, in the New Testament, under different names and different presentations. I can also find predestination. But I don't look very hard. I don't think human would be are capable of grasping such matters, no matter how well they were presented. I think many of the things in the Bible (like heaven and hell) are symbolic representations of divine rewards and punishments. Something that primitive humans could visualize.

At least if you want to be taken seriously. And no belief or lack thereof is a license to be an a**hole.

True! But it's the whole "turning the other cheek" thing in Christianity that I struggle with the most. I figure somebody slaps me on one cheek, I best knock them out before they get a chance to do it again. Highlander is much better at turning the other cheek than I am, and she's not even Christian :O

Highlander said...

Maya, LL and Craig I can't really talk about atheism as I have no opinion about that. They only thing I could venture to say is that everyone is free to believe what they think and accept the consequences.

Highlander said...

The links you posted are quite interesting Nomad, thanks I loved them.

I don't differentiate between humans, plants or animals I believe they all have a soul and that everything created on this earth has been created to Praise God. Therefore all these creatures are aware of God's presence and therefore seek to do good. This may sound crazy but even inanimate objects in my opinion are aware of God's presence.

In this regard I am not surprised that animals can show compassion or that plants can respond to care. Your links to me prove that and therefore we as humans should be held even more accountable for our deeds because we have been given free will.

NOMAD said...

ok, let's say "spirituality", because in the name of "God", so many worse possible evenments have occured and still or will . We were given the will to choose ; but for choosing an option rather than another one, that supposes your aware of them, that your not ignorant or blind ; I don't see much people with a qualification of being able to make a good choice and still assume the responsability of it ; rather than we were given that power, I would say that humanoïds had the chance to cross ecological and climates transformations, and develop their abstraction sense and skills for drawings and writings, while other species developed other senses and skills

anyway, thanks for caring of animals and nature in general

The Lost Libyano said...

LL, why are you so angry that I gave you a link to an article from FrontPageMag?

I am not angry:P I am amused.


You are right that primitive people resort easily to killing. But with Islamism, it is

advanced people who do the same. This is why I dislike Islamism.

I dont know what exactly is Islamism. It seems to be inseprable from Islam. Some say its

political Islam, but Islam is a way of life? And politics is a part of life so it seems only

natural that Islam is involved in it. Why without it then politics would be primative.

I should refrase the statement above..... I have a problem with MURDER. Killing is all good

by me as long as it is justfied. You feel the same way maya, you supported the war in Iraq,

and in the above post you supported the death penilty. I approve of killing as long as it is

justified. What does that mean?

1. WAR. As long as its ligitamatly government regulated(Defensive War, and Offisve war in the name of spreading justice. War's which are waged both defensive and offensive must adhear to Islamic Ethic's meaning it is prohibited to kill non-combatant's, attack the enviornment, or animals as in occurdance with God's Law.People who do that transgress the limits which the lord had set.)

President Bush claim's that he attacked Iraq to bring what he calls "The Almighty's gift of freedom to Iraq". He also came to bring the rule of law, ect... Western Democractic theory teaches that the whole world must submit to the Universal Human Rights declaration.... Islam teaches the whole world must submit to Islamic Law..... Democratic Theory states that Democratic States do not war. Islam teaches that in theory at least Islamic States do not war.

Belive it or not maybe the west is creeping out of the dark ages and coming closer to Islam. Their logic is good, its just the term's are bad. But ofcourse I personally do not belive that Mr..Bush is really waging war because he hates tyrany, and wants to give the Middle East the God's Gift of Freedom. Maybe he does feel like that. God only knows, but from The Lost Libyano stands it seem's he is what one of those people god talks about in the Quran when God states their words are sweet but their action's are sour. But thats my interpertation. I think Mr. Bush was hijacked by people who are extreamly cunning, he seems to be lost and dazed like a deer in you run into at night in west texas, substitute the headlights of your truck, with those of the media camera's......

I dont think he is a evil man, he just doesnt strike me as the evil types... Putin on the other hand does. I think President Bush is a very sad man, despite the silly smirk which he sport's. I know I sport a smirk a good chunck of the time, but I am by no mean's always on cloud nine, far from it. I dont think he wanted to become president he much rather live a simple life in Crawford, I can dig that. Anyway.....


2. I belive in killing in the form of the Death Penility. Or in the case of indiviudal nessecity(self defense protecting one's blood, property, and wealth.)



I'd advise you to forget about the "errors of Darwinism". This is nonsense. Darwinism is a gold standard for me. I avoid talking with people who reject it. They have placed themselves outside the realm of reason and our languages cannot be translated into each other.


Actually I feel the exact same way about darwanist's. In my mind THEY take themselves outside of the realm of reason. They refuse to look at their opponent's arguments in the light of reason, they are closed minded people such as yourself(you said you avoid talking to the otherside), they do not even want to hear what the otherside has to say against their
arguments. I have no problem when people question creationalism, or Islam in general because

God say's truth stands from error' and the Koran states that if yopu belive in something

prove it! If you view the error's of darwanism as non-sense refute the arguments and allow

the otherside to issue a response? That seem's practical, eh?( God I am becomeing a

canadian.lol. I love the Eh?:P do they really sleep with their door's unlocked?)



Highlander said...
Maya, LL and Craig I can't really talk about atheism as I have no opinion about that. They

only thing I could venture to say is that everyone is free to believe what they think and

accept the consequences.

Well Highlander that's a very Islamo-centric view of things. Their is no compulsion in

religon, truth stands from error, ect... Not Everyone holds mine your enlightened Islamic

View. Their are many athiest's in America who belive that people of faith are mentally ill,

and that they should be confined to Assylums! Like Chrisopher Hitchens for instance. And

some go as far as stating that teaching ones child religion is a act of child abuse! And

among the Abrahamic Faith's Judism for instance, one is not free to worship as they please,

one must worship the Gof of Israel, the lord of host's or be put to death. Many Biblie

Literalist's in Christianity also hold this position, seeing as how Jesus(PBUH) stated in

the Gospel Of Matthew 5:17-20. He also went on to scold one of his disciples for straying

from the law in Mattew Chapter 15. Jesus wanted those who cursed their parents to be put to

death. He brought it up when one of his disciple's asked him why he was breaking the

tradition of the elder's, apparently Jesus viewed the laws of the elders as bida(innovation
in matters of religion), he went on to ask why people are following what the elder's say,

and disregardig God almighty Law to put children who disrespect their parent to death. From

this it seems Jesus was anti-talmud(the customs and laws of the Rabbi's, the Elders) and he

was Pro-Torah(The Law). So from what I understand Until The Heaven and Earth pass(we still

are here arent we?), and until everything is acomplished(he's coming back isnt he?) then the

law is alive and well. Thats just my take, I am not a Christian Theologian though I am a

Berber, as was St. Augistine, so..... we kinda are cut out for the Job:P


I don't differentiate between humans, plants or animals I believe they all have a soul and

that everything created on this earth has been created to Praise God. Therefore all these

creatures are aware of God's presence and therefore seek to do good. This may sound crazy

but even inanimate objects in my opinion are aware of God's presence.

In this regard I am not surprised that animals can show compassion or that plants can

respond to care. Your links to me prove that and therefore we as humans should be held even

more accountable for our deeds because we have been given free will.

WOW!!! Now that Highlander Was BEUTIFUL!!! You get my comment of the year!
Animal's and Plants do indeed exist to worship god Almighty, but you see thats what makes us

human's diffrent our freewill..... Its sort of our curse if you think about it:P We have a

choice between worshipping God Almighty, or not. Its a test. It's the purpose of life! I

also agree that inanimate objects are aware of God almighty's presence, I dont want to drag

on and on about this, because I want to elaborate greatly, hopefully I will write a post

about it. I am bringing back my Fallen Libyano blog online. I just have to save all of the

very personal item's as draft's.

Highlander said...

LL I'm waiting for your posts remember there are ayas in the Quran about how the animals pray to God also yes :)

NOMAD said...

seems that what we were talking about is going to happen :

the bulgarian nures and the palestinian doctor are going to be released and sent back to Sofia

selon les bons offices de Sarkozy et de sa femme.

and Paris is going to equiped the hospital where the kids are taken cared with the last new technological material

NOMAD said...

centrales nucléaires vs infirmières bulgares, pas bête !

business is business