The Escort Business
Do you recall my earlier post about an Iraqi blogger saying she was working as a 'mistress' ( euphemism for prostitute)? This post generated an interesting discussion especially by DM who said that if she had dressed more modestly she would not have been lured into that business. I still maintain that she had to do this in order to survive. And because of the rigid code of honour in the Arab world, she has gone down that path because nothing else was available anymore ( I'm not condoning this ok -so please spare me the blows). However, I found a disturbing post about the rising number of teenage girl Iraqi prostitutes in Syria , who had run from the war and who are the only breadwinners for their families, sometimes their own brothers acting as pimps . Because of the war on Iraq, these girls have resorted to this kind of work instead of going to school. Please remember that like I said earlier there are hundreds of thousands of Iraqi refugees in Syria. Many complain that they do not get assylum visas anymore because their country is 'free and democratic' now so they have no excuses. Another human tragedy of this crazy war I guess. please read the article here on Joshua's blog and remember the issue is NOT Syria but the consequences of war forcing young Iraqi girls to become prostitutes and break all these taboos to feed their families despite their newfound freedom and liberation in Iraq.
24 comments:
This is a very sad situation. Human dignity is the
most important and most valuable thing we have got.
We loose it and we are not worth anything anymore.
So it is not possible by any means to justify anything
that leads to this situation of child prostitution.
I would like to make a point here by asking this question:
Did you ever ask yourselves how come this sad phenomena
did NOT take place in Afghanistan. At least not on a large
scale as this.
Certainly Iraq or Syria did not suffer even one millionth
of what the poor Afghani people went through from the days
of the Russians to the Taliban and until today.
My answer, which is my point, is because of Afghanistan's
religious and conservative cultural background.
The Baathist party ruling Syria and Iraq on the other hand
did not spare an effort at distroying religion and spreading
its athiest thinking with western style expressive dress
codes and night clubs ........ etc etc etc.
Would any body care to comment.
DM
DM , Syria cannot stop western style dress and night club, because Syria is not exclusively Muslim, and neither is Iraq. If you have ever been to Syria you will find most women quite conservatively dressed. But prostitution is rife even in the Gulf and Saudi Arabia and yes probably Libya too ( it is the oldest business in the worl).
Nobody is justifying anything. Just lamenting the situation.These kids are trying to survive, if you've read the article you would know that the recent ones come from Fallujah which as you know is very very conservative like Afhgannistan.
You don't know what has been going on in Afghanistan after their liberation as well. Don't blame the dress code...you know very well how that can be used I don't need to go into detail do I ? balash il fadayeh 3ala elsa7a ;)
Nightclubs, etc... have been there before the baath party in the forms of hannat etc...the most corrupt are the Gulf tourists who have created a higher demand for this market as it's cheaper than going to Europe, hardly any Syrian can afford a 100 $ or even 30 $ on a chick .
DM, religious fervor has never cured prostitution before, and it doesn't now.
Here's a link with stories about Iran and sex slavery:
http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/refs_iran.htm
There are plenty more. Iran has a HUGE problem with prostitution right now. Really, an epidemic. I saw a story on a news where a journalist in Afghanistan came upon approximately 70 Iranian girls being sold at auction in Afghanistan. Iran is now a major exporter of young women for the sex trade, right alongside India and the Phillipines, and the Ukraine in Europe. Yes, I know it's shocking.It shocked me too. Iran would have been about the last country I put on "trafficking in humans" list. But there are too many documented stories by reputable journalists to deny it.
This is a very sad story about the Iraqi girls, but as highlander said, it's not something new. In Thailand and the Phillipines, poor girls often support their whole families by working as bar girls, which in many cases is just another way of saying prostitute.
I don't really have a moral objection to make about prostitution. People have a right to whatever they need to do to survive. I only have a moral objection to prostitution when it's involuntary. I know that's counter to my religion and most others, but just can't accept the idea that people should have to starve to death rather than break religious practices.
Highlander,
This is very interesting topic. I will do some gardening, feed the ducks, cook and I will be back with more later :)
Thanks for a great post.
Programmer_Craig
Iran is a special case my friend for the simple reason it went through a war with Saddam Husein's Iraq that cost it not less than a million men. And that is a lot's of male "dingdongs" to loose in a single generation my friend. It is like Germany immediately after WW2.
This brings to mind another plus of religion, Islam at least, in fighting prostitution in such dire situations of war and massive destruction, Namely poligimy.
Wouldn't it be better to allow many women to share a single husband than not to have any at all.
I personally have 3 sisters who are not married. I would love to see each one of them to have half a husband than to be sitting at home waiting for a full one.
I hope this makes sense to you my western friends. I know that it is hard to accept.
DM
Highlander
You know quite well the systematic process of eliminating religion from schools and the minds of the peoples under the oppressive rule of these Baath party dogmatic states and their likes my friend.
There is no room for explaining that in this small table.
Our country Libya, being no different went and is still going through the same process.
The end result, Tripoli had never seen so many young prostitutes in its streets. selling their bodies, not to feed their families, but because they are in a state of mind that accepts this kind of work in order to obtain a nicer dress and a better perfum.
Now where are the foreign invaders and economic hardships for this.
When our people were conservative and religious, not fanatics as programmer_craig and other westerners may think, do you know how they faced to starvation in the 30's and 40's of the past century?
The able ones sought their livelihood in other countries, Tunisia, egypt ..... etc.
The other ones, many of them simply would enter a room and seel its door with stone and mud and go to sleep simply to suffocate and die in a final sleep. A well known act of family suicide known as "Mudding" .... يطينوا
They did that but not think of selling their budies.
Compare those generations with the ones we have today after so many years of ....... progress.
I don't think that economic hardship creates prostitution.
People must be mentally prepared to do it. Material need is only one reason they jump into it.
Now dutch women selling their gear on the "Meat Market" of Amsterdam are definately not doing it to avoide starvation.
Our friend Programmer_Craig said that in principle he is not against doing it willingly.
After all in the west, so long as they pay their taxes ....... why not?
DM
Hey DM that's not fair, I had some qualifiers on my "non-objection" to prostitution!
And I actually agree with a lot of the things you say, but I don't have time to go into it right now. I'll try to explain when I get back :)
It's a very sad situation for these poor girls. They are doing it to help their families.
I have noticed in my years in Libya that there are more Libyan girls prostituting themselves when they used to be more Morracans in the past. These prostitutes are busy doing a thriving business. And it doesn't upset me as much as seeing the young girls that are making deals with shop keepers in order to get fashionable clothes. Because I am a foriegner in Libya they think that I must not know what they are saying in Arabic and continue their bargaining in my presence. How sad to see girls selling themselves for a pair of shoes, a party dress, make-up, some costume jewelry or some other trinket. If they were doing it to feed their families it would be a bit easier to eccept - but they are just doing it for the extra things and to make themselves look fashionable. . . sigh
DM mudding is suicide and that is haram !
Highlander,
Perhaps the situation is not really due to the Iraq war. Perhaps it is really the terrorists sent by Syria who make life so miserable for the Iraqi people that they have to leave.
DM,
Prostitution has been around far longer than western dress and nightclubs.
About your three sisters, do they have other things to do in their lives besides sitting around waiting for a husband?
-Aliandra
Aliandra , thanks for visiting :)
Your speculation could be correct, but I don't think 100 or even 1000 Arab foreign fighters can make life so difficult for the Iraqis that they need to leave..what about the more than 100000 americans there can you honestly tell me that they are making life easier? Maybe their intentions are good but their application of these 'good intentions' has not been succesful so far. The result ? destroyed families all over Iraq, destroyed houses an even more destroyed economy etc......even if it is all collateral damage. The Iraqis in Syria are people who have escaped the bombing and the war etc.. unless you are one of them ( ie and Iraqi who left Iraq as a direct threat of a Syrian foreign fighter ) and would like to explain your point of view in more detail,I am absolutely open to dialogue. And I agree prostitution has nothing to do with nightclubs etc as I already stated.
As for DM's sisters, I don't think he meant they are literally waiting at home for a husband, rather, that they are still unmarried and their chances are getting slimmer day by day and that is why he would rather they enter a polygamous marriage than they remain unattached because men and women are not meant to be celibate ( i.e. no sex) and it is better to engage in sex legally in the eyes of God ( for the faithful).
Programmer_Craig:
I am waiting for your comments.
I highly value your opinion my friend.
Highlander:
Thank you for explaining to Aliandra about my sisters. They would be shocked if they knew that they are the subject of discussion on this nice international round table ...... ha ha ha ha ha.
Khadija:
You have hit it right on the nail my friend. That is exactly my point. Prostitution starts in the mind. It is not created by economic hardship. Thank you for the explanation which is mostly directed to you Highlander.
To All: Look for the Gypsies:
I would like to remind you all that its my strong opinion that most of the prostitutes in Syria who claim to be Iraqis, are actually Gypsies not Iraqis.
Prostitution and Begging is a normal way of life for them and there are plenty of them in that region.
Iraqis, like Palestineans, are "warm blooded reptiles" if you allow the term. They are mostly or in general too hot headed. They would rather die or kill than send their women to earn a living in that humiliating fasion.
DM
Highlander:
I would think that it is far more honorable to die in a suicidal way than to fall to prostitution. To me it is also far less haram.
Only people of very high moral caliber though are capable of acheiving that standard though I must admit. Not too many of us would reach the spiritual level of the Japanese camicazis or the Palestenian suicide bombers though.
You know about our saying:
"The Free woman would rather die than to live off here own flesh"
تموت الحره ولا تاكل لحم درعانها
This message is also meant to be infromative to you Programmer_Craig. Sorry my friend, but that is what we the Arabs and Muslims think.
Prostitution to us is a very bad and sad state of being. It should not be accepted even if it was the oldest profession in the world.
Killing is older BTW as Kane هابيلkilled his brother Abe قابيل sorry i am not sure of their spelling in English. Before there could have been prostitution. Non-the less no one would think of legalising murder on that ground.
DM
Hi Highlander,
From reading the Iraqi blogs, they say many Iraqis are leaving because it's the terrorists and fanatics who are devastating their lives, not the Americans. Many, of not most of these terrorists are being sponsored by Syria and Saudi Arabia.
As for DMs sisters in polygamist marriages - polygamy is not my cup of tea, but if people want to do it, then so be it.
I personally think prostitution is disgusting. However, if all parties are in it voluntarily, then there is no victim and no crime. In the US, it is illegal everywhere (except for Nevada), but it still goes on. The higher-class prostitutes do it for the money and the street prostitutes do it to get drugs. No one approves of it or wants it in their neighborhood but it is impossible to eliminate.
Aliandra
DM,
The saying in the west is that "Prostitution is the world's oldest Profession" not the world's oldest sin.
Also, why is it that Islam prescribes only punishing the women? Why aren't the men who solicit the prostitutes stoned right beside the prostitute herself? Has the male not sinned as much as the prostitute?
Seems to me, that there would be a lot less exploitation of women as prostitutes in the ME, if men were held to the same standards of conduct as the women are.
Later
Tater
DM, those Iraqis in Syria are NOT gypsies. Gypsies beg in some countries because they are discriminated against ( especially in Europe ). However, they will not be considered high class prostitutes worthy of business in those Syrian nightclubs catering for Gulf people.
Aliandra, prostitution is a profession and a sin yes ( I don't condone , but would not condemn it if the girl or boy for that matter was starving). It is a sin for both men and women. The seller AND the buyer are punished in Islam ( which was not the point of the topic by the way ;) ). They should be given 100 lashes. Not only the woman. Please don't take only half the information, if you want to talk Sharia. However , some scholars interpret that this means a strong punishement, in the medieval times it was lashes, nowadays, prostitutes of both genders and adulterers serve prison sentences ( except in Saudi Arabia and with the Taliban and maybe in your country ? ).
Anonymous 7:24 PM maybe you are also Aliandra, this is not a discussion about women's exploitation. However, if you wish to discuss that, yes, why not? I would like to remind you that women are exploited everywhere, in Europe , in America, in Asia ,in Africa . it is not a speciality of the ME I'm sure you are aware of that. The Eastern EU prostitutes abound in UAE as I'm sure you are aware, many came to work on their own. There is human traficking going on in Europe to provide fresh 'meat' for the brothels. While the pimps in America ( North and South) have a lively business don't they. And let me not start on the far east ....The morale of the story ? Prostitution is everywhere, some is willingly but divided into 2 categories (1) for better clothes, trinkets, high life etc.. (2) mere survival others are (3) against their wishes as a form of slavery.
Khadijateri, I hear you yes I am so angry at those stupid Libyan girls who do it just to get pocket money or a dress, these are not starving , they just want to compete on the fashion scene, and in my opinion need a sound beating and re-education along with the men who accept their advances.
DM , you can't say that they don't have religious education , because they still teach it at school. But even though Libya is very expensive compared to the times of our parents , and the salaries are peanuts, this is not an excuse , they should learn to live within their means or get a job ( no pun intended). The escort business in Libya is mostly Moroccans, but in the last few years unfortunately, the Libyan girls have started 'freelancing' as well in a different area.Being culturally bombarded with stuff on TV as well does not help although it should not be an excuse! Acquiring the look of the Lebanese TV presenters and stars is not cheap and requires high maintenance even for those who can afford it.
Aliandra, I read the Iraqi blogs too, and I don't see that for ex 100 000 iraqis left because 20 foreigners devastated their lives . You know and I know that this is the case. And even if those foreigners are wrecking havoc, who let them in, in the first place ? The 'liberation' of Iraq created the ideal breeding ground for 'terrorists'. Prior to that Iraqis complained only of Saddam and his henchmen and the UN and US sanctions. Anyway this is the story of the egg & chicken ....
Hi Highlander,
Thanks for responding to my post. I’d like to address some of your points …
You said "The 'liberation' of Iraq created the ideal breeding ground for 'terrorists'."”
Sept 11th ocurred in 2001. In 2002, the Europeans discovered plots by jihadists to poison the French water supply and attack European targets. Both these incidents happened before the invasion of Iraq.
Extremist mosques create the ideal breeding ground for terrorists. They are sponsored by middle-eastern money. Fanatical imams tell young men to chop off infidel heads for Allah or to blow themselves up for an orgy with 72 slavegirls. Your part of the world needs religious reform very badly, before it becomes massively destructive to itself and the rest of the world.
“ Prior to that Iraqis complained only of Saddam and his henchmen and the UN and US sanctions"
Do you think Saddam was “only” a minor complaint? You never heard any Iraqis complain of the 300,000 innocent people he put into mass graves? You never heard them complain of the gassing of Halabja? Of the people he put into wood chippers and acid vats? Did you know that Iraqi researchers, who studied Baathist documents, estimated that Saddam would have killed another 70,000 people had he remained in power?
All the Iraqis bloggers say the same thing, whether they are for the war or against it. As bad as things are now, Saddam was much much worse.
“Aliandra, I read the Iraqi blogs too, and I don't see that for ex 100 000 iraqis left because 20 foreigners devastated their lives . You know and I know that this is the case.”
There’s a lot more than 20 foreign terrorists in Iraq, Highlander. You and I both know that. Estimates run to the hundreds. That’s more than enough to devastate people’s lives.
“Aliandra, prostitution is a profession and a sin yes They should be given 100 lashes. Not only the woman.”
My part of the world does not believe in physical punishment for crimes that have no victim. Yes, prostitution is revolting and I wish it would stop, but you cannot beat people bloody because they offended your sensibilities.
“prostitutes of both genders and adulterers serve prison sentences ( except in Saudi Arabia and with the Taliban and maybe in your country ? ).”
In my country, prostitutes pay a fine and spend a night in jail. Sometimes the “johns” go to jail too – it depends on the local law. Some towns tried to publish the names of the johns in the newspaper to embarrass them. Didn’t really do much good, :-)
However, anyone engaged in child prostitution WILL be spending a long long time in proson.
We classify adultery as moral wrongdoing, not crime. Adulterers do not go to jail or pay fines. Their spouses just divorce them. If you can prove adultery, the court’s ruling will be in your favor. You will get custody of the children and probably most of the assets.
Cheers
Aliandra
To everybody:
This has been a very interesting and informative debate.
It was also very well moderated and assisted by you Highlander, many thanks.
If you allow me, I would like to summarize what I have learned from it:
1. That we are very different. As a matter of fact diametrically opposed
On this, and many other serious, issues. While you guys see prostitution in
The west as a normal and “taxable” profession between consenting adults.
We down here in the east see it, and all forms of sex outside marriage, as a
Shameful act and a horrible sin that attaches a stigma with a family that can
not be erased for generations.
2. Should we be civilized enough to respect each other’s stand. And more
Importantly to keep our convictions within our own borders and not try to
Impose them on others by force or by the imposition of ruthless dictators we
could well prevent the close encounter of our two quite different cultures from
becoming a destructive conflict. With dialogue, mutual respect and peaceful
coexistence in our separate territories we can have a very interesting interaction
that could generate many new and profound solutions to the problems that we
all face. For instance our option of more than one wife as opposed to multiple
mistresses. The recent invention from the west of same sex marriages is also
an option. Not my sort of cup of tea Aliandr, but its freedom I guess.
The Japanese are a long way into creating the dream Robot mate. They may
Well render all our talk about sex and prostitution out of date …… imagine
The availability of a sex mate with dingdongs that run on rechargeable batteries.
Who would need a human partner with his big mouth and risk of disease … ;-)
3. Not unusual to such round table debates the center of attention has drifted
To unexpected grounds. From Bagdad’s Mistress we found ourselves talking
About Tripoli’s love birds. And amazingly to my 3 nun-like sisters sitting
At home doing nothing but waiting for husbands, as some of you may have
Misunderstood my slip of the tongue. Oh BTW Gentelmen, those of you who are
members of the “Jesus tribe” need not apply because only Muslims qualify.
You know why, because your faith does not recognize our prophet Mohammed.
We can marry your women on the other hand as we do believe in and highly
respect your prophet Jesus (Eisa as we call him here).
A nice debate, thanks Highlander. Looking forward to many other ones like it.
DM
Hi DM,
Just want to clarify some misunderstandings …
You said “ That we are very different. As a matter of fact diametrically opposed on this, and many other serious, issues. While you guys see prostitution in The west as a normal and “taxable” profession between consenting adults.”
Very few people in the West approve of prostitution or see it as normal. We simply do not think people should be beaten or imprisoned for an act that has no victim. The same goes for smoking, alcoholism, gambling, and other vices. We do not approve of these things either, but people shouldn’t be put in jail for doing them.
”We down here in the east see it, and all forms of sex outside marriage, as a
Shameful act and a horrible sin “
Many Westerners would agree with you. Opinions on extra-marital sex are not uniform. Yes, the west is a lot “looser’ with sexual morality and it has unfortunately been to our detriment. We have too many kids born to unmarried parents who are not interested in supporting them.
“With dialogue, mutual respect and peaceful coexistence in our separate territories we can have a very interesting interaction”
Completely agree!
” For instance our option of more than one wife as opposed to multiple
mistresses. The recent invention from the west of same sex marriages is also
an option. Not my sort of cup of tea Aliandr, but its freedom I guess.”
DM, the vast majority of western husbands are faithful to their wives and do not have multiple mistresses. Do not believe that what you see on TV is the norm. The media will always present the most outrageous and sensationalist stories because that’s what people to watch. Always verify what you hear with someone who actually lives in the culture.
I would even argue that polygamists have a stronger case to marry than do people of the same sex. Polygamy has existed throughout history in certain cultures. Same sex spouses never have.
”A nice debate, thanks Highlander. Looking forward to many other ones like it.”
Me too.
Aliandra
Doh, I missed all the discussion! Well, I'll post a bit late then :)
DM... not sure what a "hot blooded lizard" is but thank you for the explanation. I really cannot understand your (apparrent) assertion that prostitution is rare in Islamic societies. Even highlander states that a lot of women from Eastern europe are arriving in the ME for the purposes of prostitution... who are their customers? I didn't really want to discuss religious aspects of prostitution, though, so we'll just have to disagree on that. I would agree with you that prostitution is much more socially unacceptable in the ME - but that doesn't make it more rare.
Suicide bombers and kamikazes... well, I can accept the kamikazes being "spiritual" in their motivations. They were attacking military targets that they could destroy in no other way. Suicide bombers who murder the innocent are just plain old nihilists as far as I'm concerned, and they aren't going to heaven, they are going to a very special hell.
Hmmm... time to get back on track I think! When I said I don't have moral objections to doing it willingly, I really meant only those who do it for survival. I'm not even sure I don't have objections to all of that... alcholics and drug addicts who are unemployable, for instance. I'd rather see them kicking their habits than supplying them by selling their bodies. That's an artificially created "survival" mode.
But the problem is, a society cannot decide that some forms of prostitution are OK and some are not. Most societies make prostitution illegal, period, but many do not enforce the laws with much vigor. That's how the United States is. Except in Nevada where it's legal for some strange reason!
Polygamy... I guess I have no problem with this either even though it's not a Christian practice. I've never seen it in action but it seems like it might work if the husband/wives were all trying to make it work.
Back to the original topic! Yes, highlander, I think the problem with the Iraqi girls is that they no longer qualify as anything but economic refugees, which puts them in a very bad position. I'm guessing that many of them just crossed the border into Syria and probably do not even have legal status?
I don't know how the Iraqis or Americans can fix this in the short term.
Aliandra, I disagree about "the vast majority of western husbands are faithful to their wives" - pretty strongly, in fact!
I saw a poll that CNN/Gallup did a few years ago that claimed 54% of married women admitted cheating on their husbands, and 52% of married men admitted cheating on their wives! This was a blind poll where people could answer the questions anonymously, and therefore(presumably) honestly.
I never cheated on my wife(honestly!) when I was married, but my father was a Bill Clinton type... he's been married 5 times, and every divorce was due to adultery. So, there's the 50% mark in my family already. I suspect the numbers are the same everywhere, because people are people. For instance, look at the question of who the customers are for all those prostitutes going to the middle east! Tourists? I think not :p
But women in Islamic cultures may cheat less... because they'll be stoned to death. And getting stoned to death sucks.
lol Craig, topics are always open so don't worry you're not late...but was wondering where you might have been :)
Thanks for your input I really enjoyed it !
Craig,
There are lots of polls and most of them put the cheaters in the minority. It depends on who you're polling, particularly if you're polling, say, Playboy subscribers.
The top two reasons for marriage breakups are 'nothing in common' and 'we drifted apart'. Adultery is at the bottom, along with abuse.
LOL. If 50% of married people were cheating, I would know a lot more cheaters. I don't.
Aliandra
Heh, Aliandra... you assume people you know would come up to you and say "I cheat on my husband!" - and you must know people don't generally talk about things they are ashamed of or that people would look down on them for!
That said, I don't know the actual percentages and I don't know that anybody does. Stats for divorce are nutty, because the largest state in America - California - has only one type of divorce, irreconcileable differences. How could you gather any meaningful data on causes for divorce from that? Besides, adultery is very difficult to prove, no matter what your instinct is telling you. My mother had no idea my father was cheating on her until she got a letter from a woman who was pregnant by him and then he dumped her. Adultery is the worst thing you can do to your spouse, but I just don't think it's that rare.
I wish it were.
To All: Sex in the 21’st Century
I was hoping some of you would comment on the merits of
Having a robotic sex-mate. It is going to be an option
In our lifetime I am sure.
America gave us the PC and I think that Japan will give
the world the PR “Personal Robot”. sex will most
certainly be one of its basic built-in standard skills.
The vision of the very interesting film A.I. will be upon
us a lot sooner than we had thought.
I wonder what the Vatican would say about it. But I bet
You that even the Pope himself will have a female, nun-like
PR … to “open his letters” and to keep his desk tidy …
Until the room light is switched off ….he he he he he he.
I have not got the foggiest idea what Islamic scholars and
Theologians would say about it. I may dare to ask our
Local mosque Imam about it:
Your honor: did the prophet say anything about making
Love with a robot? Well … If you guys don’t hear from
me in the next few days it may well be that I had been
………………… beheaded
Aliandra:
Thank you for indicating your agreement I need
That kind of reassurance of my sanity every now & then.
Programmer_Craig:
We are also in agreement. I most Importantly salute your
candidness and love for the truth in the statistics you mentioned
about infidelity in marriages in the west.
I did not claim BTW that we do not have a problem with
Prostitution. Like everyone else we have our share of all
the ills and vices of our time. Prostitution, Aids and crime.
and even more than anybody else in corruption, human right
violations, women oppression and mistreatment. The reason
being our political and social backwardness. We are struggling
to improve and catch up with the rest of the world. But these
bloody dictatorships and military coups have been a major
obstacle to progress. Most of them were installed on us by the
politically more advanced west that had been seeking its
interest for “secure and stable” energy sources as confessed
by Condy Rice herself recently in Egypt. We hope that the
future will be better as she has promised.
DM
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