Haditha & Zarqawi: the invisible connection. ( warning long post )
The blogosphere and the MSM have been recently abuzz with the repercussions from the Haditha alleged massacre in Iraq by US marines. I purposely refrained from bringing the topic up because in my opinion it was irrelevant. Why do you think ? Because I keep repeating myself since the US led invasion of Iraq, that NO sane person should be shocked at anything an occupying force does. You can quote Geneva conventions and codes of honour till the roosters come home it does not matter on the ground; when the sweat and the blood mix, when the sound of artillery bursts your ears.... only the morally strongest individuals among us will keep virtue and honour. The rest will gladly toss all ethical concerns from the window. Moreover ,
if they are a more powerful side they will attempt a cover up.
I’m neither bitter nor angry plus I'm too far removed from the war zone butI’m actually feeling sorry for the Americans who are shocked at what some of their elite people are capable of doing. I applaud their clamouring for justice and for punishing the guilty party. I expected that, because deep down most Americans are good people and they sincerely believe in the nobility of the ultimate goal. Moreover, it is better than the justice we on this side are awaiting for crimes perpetrated by Arabs on Arabs for example ( Darfur comes to mind).
However, timing is an important factor and I am left wondering, why was the Haditha affair blown up recently yet it took place in November 2005 . Are there any possible ulterior motives behind this after it had been left as obscure news before? and what about Zarqawi he was expedited quite fast suddenly. We are left with many questions, and none of them may have an answer in this lifetime.
While trying to make up my mind about the above issue, I came across an interesting article in Arabic by Buthaina Shabaan in the Asharqalawsat online paper. I must admit that I’m a great fan of her writing style, and enjoy her twist on events. To some of you it may smack of fantasy and conspiracy theories, but the events when thrown toghether this should at least lead us think..If not in the direction she wished then at least to one of a different viewpoint.After all maybe things should not always be taken at face value.
The op-Ed was in Arabic so the following is my humble translation, and the links provided are added by me or your enjoyment. I hope I have been able to do justice to her words.
The blogosphere and the MSM have been recently abuzz with the repercussions from the Haditha alleged massacre in Iraq by US marines. I purposely refrained from bringing the topic up because in my opinion it was irrelevant. Why do you think ? Because I keep repeating myself since the US led invasion of Iraq, that NO sane person should be shocked at anything an occupying force does. You can quote Geneva conventions and codes of honour till the roosters come home it does not matter on the ground; when the sweat and the blood mix, when the sound of artillery bursts your ears.... only the morally strongest individuals among us will keep virtue and honour. The rest will gladly toss all ethical concerns from the window. Moreover ,
if they are a more powerful side they will attempt a cover up.
I’m neither bitter nor angry plus I'm too far removed from the war zone butI’m actually feeling sorry for the Americans who are shocked at what some of their elite people are capable of doing. I applaud their clamouring for justice and for punishing the guilty party. I expected that, because deep down most Americans are good people and they sincerely believe in the nobility of the ultimate goal. Moreover, it is better than the justice we on this side are awaiting for crimes perpetrated by Arabs on Arabs for example ( Darfur comes to mind).
However, timing is an important factor and I am left wondering, why was the Haditha affair blown up recently yet it took place in November 2005 . Are there any possible ulterior motives behind this after it had been left as obscure news before? and what about Zarqawi he was expedited quite fast suddenly. We are left with many questions, and none of them may have an answer in this lifetime.
While trying to make up my mind about the above issue, I came across an interesting article in Arabic by Buthaina Shabaan in the Asharqalawsat online paper. I must admit that I’m a great fan of her writing style, and enjoy her twist on events. To some of you it may smack of fantasy and conspiracy theories, but the events when thrown toghether this should at least lead us think..If not in the direction she wished then at least to one of a different viewpoint.After all maybe things should not always be taken at face value.
The op-Ed was in Arabic so the following is my humble translation, and the links provided are added by me or your enjoyment. I hope I have been able to do justice to her words.
The significance of talking on the Haditha affair:
12/6/2005
Asharqalawsat
There is news that leave in its trail more question marks than answers on what is happening and the causes of what has been happening for years.
Following the confirmation of Abu Musab Al-Zarquawi’s killing, for example, the comment regarding his image was as if he was moving around in the country “free to do as he wishes, as if there was no satellite reconnaissance equipment to track every incoming signal, and to relay a clear photo of what is going on the ground”.
The unavoidable question to the human mind is weren’t these satellites present throughout all these years? Couldn’t he have been caught a while ago? Or does the timing carry its own calculations which are also part of the political, military or economic goals?
Moreover , the timing has been the most important factor during the past week in provoking a scandal about the Haditha butchery - which took place months before, and which was one of the dozens or hundreds of massacres committed against innocent civilian Iraqis .These Iraqis that find themselves stuck between the circus of Saddam’s trial and the death squads that are roaming their cities and villages reaping thousands of lives without counting and without anyone stopping to ask themselves the most important and essential question: who is doing the sectarian killings ? And who is targeting the Iraq scientists, doctors and experts? Is it correct that it is difficult to delve deeply into these questions? Or is the timing again unsuitable today!
Political aims may once more dictate eliciting some queries regarding the crimes but not out of respect for the victims, rather to shield themselves from electoral dangers or in the hope of improving one’s image and absorbing the resentment or to gain some party rounds or to prove a statement and deny another one.
The news that has reached us about Haditha does not suggest that much “respect” for the human life in Iraq. For example [we hear such statements as] “Officers have been relieved of their duties after the killing of 24 Iraqis”, or “Bush’s popularity will not be affected by the massacre”. Yet all the reports indicate that the US military in Iraq has been acting as they wish in the villages and cities, handling things as they see fit without any ethical rules or codes. It is painful to read now and after 3 years of butchery in Iraq that orders have been issued to “give US forces ethical lessons after the killing of Iraqi civilians”. Who knows how many massacres have been carried out in Iraq; the wedding in Qaem, Fallujah, Baqubba, explosions in mosques and churches whose sanctity has never been violated in the history of Iraq , to the torture and drowning of [some] Iraqi young men which was caught coincidently on tape , the killing of pregnant women, and media people ( male and female) being but a few.
The reason for the sudden move to research the causes of the Haditha massacre could be what the US retired officer Barry Mc Caffrey [Mcferry (x)wrong spelling thanks Mitchell ]-who played a leading role in the war on Iraq - said to the Time magazine that “our forces cannot continue in this way, and I’m afraid that the American people have started to give up on this war”.( if anyone has a link about this guy show me ) This could be at the core of the timing in the investigation of the Haditha massacre and the getting rid off of Zarqawi; to project an image of ethical observance and military victory to an American audience dominated by anti –war feelings. A war which has demonstrated that it was cruel/unjust and tragic with respect to a people, a country, an identity and history. Three years of haphazard killing in Iraq requires three years of investigation and inquiry without forgetting that the principal responsibility lies with those who have waged an illegal war unto a safe country [where there was no terrorism] for reasons later proved to be untrue. So what are the ‘real’ reasons behind the war on Iraq? This is the question we should be asking today rather than choosing a tiny detail from the thousands of details that deserve investigation, study and allocating the blame to those who should be held accountable for it. Could the Haditha or Ishaqi massacre (apparently the soldiers have been cleared here )and others become a point of change in the history of war on Iraq similarly to the My Lai butchery in Vietnam?
If the aim was [simply] a new policy towards the victims of war on Iraq and not limited to Iraqis only, the Haditha investigation would not have come out at the same time as a decision by the Pentagon to drop an article from the Geneva Convention explicitly referring to the banning of “humiliating and degrading of prisoners”. Some sources have stated that US policy may have to forego in some cases “ the holding on to standards of International Human rights” .This took place also at the same time that dozens of Guantanamo inmates were stopped in their hunger strike while 18 others are still pursuing it. This coincides with the report by Dick Marty, Head of the Council of Europe Committee for the Legal affairs and Human Rights which accuses Washington of following a totally foreign legal path procedure than Europe by arranging to transport “suspects” to illegal locations.; whereby 14 European countries have cooperated with the US secret service to transport these prisoners between the countries and camps. Marty called this operation a “ global spider's web, that transports suspects and treats them as criminals using tactics and techniques that had to be developed in response to new threats of war ". These events were concomitant with the British police’s raid on [some] Muslims’ houses in East London which resulted in the arrest of two brothers after one of them was injured with a bullet by the police. The British police’s raid did not result in any evidence of conspiracy for chemical attack ( which was the reason the police stated for the raid) .The question is then , who brought this false intelligence information to the London police about these Muslims? Who is fermenting distrust/suspicion between the countries where Muslims live and the Muslim communities [there]? At the same time of the East London raid (which belied the intelligence reports) a mosque in Toronto ( Canada) has been vandalized in the backdrop of the arrest of youths “ suspected to be preparing a series of terrorist attacks” as per the announcement of the civil police. Their crime: going regularly for prayers at the mosque. Family members of the suspects have stressed that the motive for such allegations are the suspicions harboured towards Muslims and expressed their confidence that the investigation will not bring up anything because the aim of this operation is to incite hatred towards Muslim communities, just as Scotland Yard had discovered that it has used wrong reports for its raid! (I think that the story maybe different now please so check here Mad Canuck here ). All this took place at the same time that John Updike has published his new novel “Terrorist” whose main character is an Arab American young man! (thanks Hannibal )
Is it only a coincidence that the war on Iraq has been waged as a result of false reports on WMD, and that Muslim communities are subject to McCarthyan inspection campaigns in all parts of the world as a result of information about ‘suspects’ which investigations later prove in most cases to have been lies? Moreover, who are the sources that have informed Washington of the Toronto operation before it took place?Are they the same sources which have informed about the WMD in Iraq? Or the same sources who have created the justifications for the new immigration law in France that makes the road to the Elysée paved with the misery of Muslims in France? In the wake of all this we read a side story basically stating that 3 British soldiers have been cleared of killing an Iraqi young man by throwing him in the river and therefore causing him to drown in front of witnesses.
Further to all these events, trust in Western laws and courts with regards to Muslim lives and their honour can no longer be upheld.
The reality in Haditha, Ishaqi, London, Toronto and Washington is that there are parties which have transformed all Muslims into suspects and have desecrated their cities, lives and honour. These [people] carry out from time to time cosmetic surgeries such as looking into the Haditha massacre for political reasons unrelated to the victims whilst the Laws in the West continue to be issued to stoke the fires of hatred against Arabs and Muslims in the West and to consider them all as suspects therefore justifying campaigns of police raid and incarceration against them, and creating an international network of cooperation against them. So has the Law in the West now turned into one that rules on expulsing, imprisoning, arresting and at times deliberate killing of suspects before directing one single question to them ?Or is this law specific to Arab and Muslims only ?If this is the case then, should we not call everything that we are witnessing and living : the neo racism against Arabs and Muslims. One whose goals can be summarized as per the proposal of Israeli General Geyor Eiland namely to create a Palestinian state which would expand on Egyptian and Jordanian lands. Also, does this mean that the aim for the war on Iraq was swallowing Palestine and consigning the victims of this war and the previous wars to the place of suspects everywhere to prevent international public opinion from dealing with them and listening to their opinions which would totally alter the common understanding about them [ the Arabs & Muslims] . Could the point of the discussion on Haditha simply be a cosmetic improvement of the picture and to gain another round in the real war now taking place against Arabs and Muslims in the East and the West?”.
12/6/2005
Asharqalawsat
There is news that leave in its trail more question marks than answers on what is happening and the causes of what has been happening for years.
Following the confirmation of Abu Musab Al-Zarquawi’s killing, for example, the comment regarding his image was as if he was moving around in the country “free to do as he wishes, as if there was no satellite reconnaissance equipment to track every incoming signal, and to relay a clear photo of what is going on the ground”.
The unavoidable question to the human mind is weren’t these satellites present throughout all these years? Couldn’t he have been caught a while ago? Or does the timing carry its own calculations which are also part of the political, military or economic goals?
Moreover , the timing has been the most important factor during the past week in provoking a scandal about the Haditha butchery - which took place months before, and which was one of the dozens or hundreds of massacres committed against innocent civilian Iraqis .These Iraqis that find themselves stuck between the circus of Saddam’s trial and the death squads that are roaming their cities and villages reaping thousands of lives without counting and without anyone stopping to ask themselves the most important and essential question: who is doing the sectarian killings ? And who is targeting the Iraq scientists, doctors and experts? Is it correct that it is difficult to delve deeply into these questions? Or is the timing again unsuitable today!
Political aims may once more dictate eliciting some queries regarding the crimes but not out of respect for the victims, rather to shield themselves from electoral dangers or in the hope of improving one’s image and absorbing the resentment or to gain some party rounds or to prove a statement and deny another one.
The news that has reached us about Haditha does not suggest that much “respect” for the human life in Iraq. For example [we hear such statements as] “Officers have been relieved of their duties after the killing of 24 Iraqis”, or “Bush’s popularity will not be affected by the massacre”. Yet all the reports indicate that the US military in Iraq has been acting as they wish in the villages and cities, handling things as they see fit without any ethical rules or codes. It is painful to read now and after 3 years of butchery in Iraq that orders have been issued to “give US forces ethical lessons after the killing of Iraqi civilians”. Who knows how many massacres have been carried out in Iraq; the wedding in Qaem, Fallujah, Baqubba, explosions in mosques and churches whose sanctity has never been violated in the history of Iraq , to the torture and drowning of [some] Iraqi young men which was caught coincidently on tape , the killing of pregnant women, and media people ( male and female) being but a few.
The reason for the sudden move to research the causes of the Haditha massacre could be what the US retired officer Barry Mc Caffrey [Mcferry (x)wrong spelling thanks Mitchell ]-who played a leading role in the war on Iraq - said to the Time magazine that “our forces cannot continue in this way, and I’m afraid that the American people have started to give up on this war”.( if anyone has a link about this guy show me ) This could be at the core of the timing in the investigation of the Haditha massacre and the getting rid off of Zarqawi; to project an image of ethical observance and military victory to an American audience dominated by anti –war feelings. A war which has demonstrated that it was cruel/unjust and tragic with respect to a people, a country, an identity and history. Three years of haphazard killing in Iraq requires three years of investigation and inquiry without forgetting that the principal responsibility lies with those who have waged an illegal war unto a safe country [where there was no terrorism] for reasons later proved to be untrue. So what are the ‘real’ reasons behind the war on Iraq? This is the question we should be asking today rather than choosing a tiny detail from the thousands of details that deserve investigation, study and allocating the blame to those who should be held accountable for it. Could the Haditha or Ishaqi massacre (apparently the soldiers have been cleared here )and others become a point of change in the history of war on Iraq similarly to the My Lai butchery in Vietnam?
If the aim was [simply] a new policy towards the victims of war on Iraq and not limited to Iraqis only, the Haditha investigation would not have come out at the same time as a decision by the Pentagon to drop an article from the Geneva Convention explicitly referring to the banning of “humiliating and degrading of prisoners”. Some sources have stated that US policy may have to forego in some cases “ the holding on to standards of International Human rights” .This took place also at the same time that dozens of Guantanamo inmates were stopped in their hunger strike while 18 others are still pursuing it. This coincides with the report by Dick Marty, Head of the Council of Europe Committee for the Legal affairs and Human Rights which accuses Washington of following a totally foreign legal path procedure than Europe by arranging to transport “suspects” to illegal locations.; whereby 14 European countries have cooperated with the US secret service to transport these prisoners between the countries and camps. Marty called this operation a “ global spider's web, that transports suspects and treats them as criminals using tactics and techniques that had to be developed in response to new threats of war ". These events were concomitant with the British police’s raid on [some] Muslims’ houses in East London which resulted in the arrest of two brothers after one of them was injured with a bullet by the police. The British police’s raid did not result in any evidence of conspiracy for chemical attack ( which was the reason the police stated for the raid) .The question is then , who brought this false intelligence information to the London police about these Muslims? Who is fermenting distrust/suspicion between the countries where Muslims live and the Muslim communities [there]? At the same time of the East London raid (which belied the intelligence reports) a mosque in Toronto ( Canada) has been vandalized in the backdrop of the arrest of youths “ suspected to be preparing a series of terrorist attacks” as per the announcement of the civil police. Their crime: going regularly for prayers at the mosque. Family members of the suspects have stressed that the motive for such allegations are the suspicions harboured towards Muslims and expressed their confidence that the investigation will not bring up anything because the aim of this operation is to incite hatred towards Muslim communities, just as Scotland Yard had discovered that it has used wrong reports for its raid! (I think that the story maybe different now please so check here Mad Canuck here ). All this took place at the same time that John Updike has published his new novel “Terrorist” whose main character is an Arab American young man! (thanks Hannibal )
Is it only a coincidence that the war on Iraq has been waged as a result of false reports on WMD, and that Muslim communities are subject to McCarthyan inspection campaigns in all parts of the world as a result of information about ‘suspects’ which investigations later prove in most cases to have been lies? Moreover, who are the sources that have informed Washington of the Toronto operation before it took place?Are they the same sources which have informed about the WMD in Iraq? Or the same sources who have created the justifications for the new immigration law in France that makes the road to the Elysée paved with the misery of Muslims in France? In the wake of all this we read a side story basically stating that 3 British soldiers have been cleared of killing an Iraqi young man by throwing him in the river and therefore causing him to drown in front of witnesses.
Further to all these events, trust in Western laws and courts with regards to Muslim lives and their honour can no longer be upheld.
The reality in Haditha, Ishaqi, London, Toronto and Washington is that there are parties which have transformed all Muslims into suspects and have desecrated their cities, lives and honour. These [people] carry out from time to time cosmetic surgeries such as looking into the Haditha massacre for political reasons unrelated to the victims whilst the Laws in the West continue to be issued to stoke the fires of hatred against Arabs and Muslims in the West and to consider them all as suspects therefore justifying campaigns of police raid and incarceration against them, and creating an international network of cooperation against them. So has the Law in the West now turned into one that rules on expulsing, imprisoning, arresting and at times deliberate killing of suspects before directing one single question to them ?Or is this law specific to Arab and Muslims only ?If this is the case then, should we not call everything that we are witnessing and living : the neo racism against Arabs and Muslims. One whose goals can be summarized as per the proposal of Israeli General Geyor Eiland namely to create a Palestinian state which would expand on Egyptian and Jordanian lands. Also, does this mean that the aim for the war on Iraq was swallowing Palestine and consigning the victims of this war and the previous wars to the place of suspects everywhere to prevent international public opinion from dealing with them and listening to their opinions which would totally alter the common understanding about them [ the Arabs & Muslims] . Could the point of the discussion on Haditha simply be a cosmetic improvement of the picture and to gain another round in the real war now taking place against Arabs and Muslims in the East and the West?”.
End of translation
This article is dated 12 June, many things happened since . I tried to corroborate most events mentioned by the author with links from sources. I just have one thing to note though that many of the abuses and murders have been discovered and reported by the same nationalities who committed them - so that is commetndable and they are trying to do justice . OK now you can start aiming all the darts at me lol or maybe not ;) just let me know what you think ?
While reading the same paper I have noticed that Dr.Bouthaina has put an English version of her article on the 18th of June , here is the link. I suggest you go and check it and tell me what you think also of my translation ( I worked so hard on it after all ) .
OH and thanks again for waiting for me :) another one is in the pipeline .
92 comments:
Hi, Highlander, glad to see you got the post up :)
I must admit that I’m a great fan of her writing style, and enjoy her twist on events.
I don't. But then, I'm not her target audience, I suppose. It's too late at night for me to dig into that in detail, but I'll be back tomorrow for sure :)
PS- Your attitude that it's OK for the Americans do act like animals because everyone else acts like animals is an improvemnet over the Arab media, which seems to think any amount of barbarity is acceptable, when it comes from Arabs. But I still think you're wrong. Believe you me, you do NOT want to encourage Americans to respond to Arab savagery with the same savagery we've been shown. The US has waged Total War in the past. Look in the history books. We aren't waging Total War now, and I would think you'd be one of the last promoting the idea that we should be.
The retired officer would be Barry McCaffrey (google).
Programmer Craig, I'll wait for your more detailed reply , but one thing already stands out :
"you do NOT want to encourage Americans to respond to Arab savagery with the same savagery we've been shown. The US has waged Total War in the past"
It's a question of the chicken and the egg here if we are talking only about the Arabs then the Iraqis have not harmed any American as far as I know prior to the war on Iraq in addition to those US military men who lost their lives liberating Kuwait.
Also I would say it is not OK to act like animals when we are always advocating Human rights etc... what I said was that I expect it and not that I condone it => that's a big difference.
Mitchell thank you so much for the link, with the Arabic letters I coul not find out googling who exactly was that officer so I wrote it phonetically and was hoping a kind soul would help me :)
Still no time for a detalied reply, Highlander, but why do you say "Iraqis" when it suits you, but you say "Arabs" when that suits you? EItehr we are talking about ALL Arabs, or we are talking about a particular country.
I think we are talking about ALL Arabs. I think you believe that too. Lets not have semantics arguments. The author of the article you translated is treateing all Arabs as a single block as well. It's not a fair discussion when you switch the evaluation criteria in the middle of the discussion.
Lybianwarrior, you're very very monotonous. And you insult Highlander who is too polite to kick you out of here as she probably should. Not because of your opinions but because you're deliberately trying to insult your host in a way which is insulting to me as well as a frequent reader (not that you should care about insulting me or not) to whom Highlander's blog is one of the addictive favourites. I don't know what traditional Berber or whatever you claim to be hospitality is like but certainly not like this.
OK, enough of feeding a troll now.
NBA
OK, my attempt at a meaningful comment now :)
After all maybe things should not always be taken at face value.
In my opinion, nothing in the Arab press (or the BBC for that matter) should be taken at face value. But you know I have that opinion from previous discussions, so I won't get into it again :)
I don't believe there is any connection between Zarqawi and Haditha. Zarqawi fled Al Anbar province because he was no longer welcome there. Shortly after he "re-settled" in Baquba, atrocities began happening there. Heads found in lettuce boxes, shia students murdered on a bus while the sunnis were spared, etc. Jordanian intelligence has been after him since he was sentenced to death in absentia by Jordan. The Shia in the Iraqi government were after him. He was vulnerable in Baquba. The day before he was killed, ISF picked up some 50 bus drivers, cab drivers and truck drivers. The lifeline of the Iraqi insurgency. Then Zarqawi got wahcked. I think it's just what it seems, Highlander.
As for the article:
The unavoidable question to the human mind is weren’t these satellites present throughout all these years?
She is creating a false impression of American technical capabilities. Why? If we could have found Zarqawi using satellite and other tracking systems, could we not have immediately found our missing two soldiers over this last weekend? Could we not have found Jill Carroll, and all the other hostages, immediately upon their capture?
It just doesn't work that way. And I suspect the author of the article knows that, and makes these outrageous claims anyway. Why?
who is doing the sectarian killings ?
Why is she asking this question? She doesn't know? Or she just wants to plant some doubt in the minds of gullible readers? Why doesn't she read Iraqi blogs? Iraqis know. Maybe she should ask Riverbend? Or Zeyad?
Yet all the reports indicate that the US military in Iraq has been acting as they wish in the villages and cities, handling things as they see fit without any ethical rules or codes.
Excuse me, but 7 American soldiers are being charged with murder today, in relation to the death of an Iraqi civilian in April. Unrelated to Haditha.
If she wants to talk about ethics, why is she not talking about the "insurgents" who tortured and dismembered two American soldiers, and then beheaded them and left them with their genitals in their mouths, after dragging them down the street behind a pickup truck? In broad daylight, in front of a bunch of Iraqi civilians.
Why doesn't she talk about that, Highlander?
Will those men ever face charges? Will the Iraqi bystanders who stood by and did nothing, face charges for conspiracy, or harboring fugitives from justice?
I am very upset by American misconduct in Iraq, and anywhere else it occurs. It makes me ashamed, as a guy who served 6 years in the Marines. But I am *so* tired of the Arab press acting like the Americans are the "bad guys" and the damned terrorists are the good guys.
Highlander,
very good article, thanks for sharing it, I like her style also. There are so many theories now about Iraq but the end result is the same. The US made a huge mistake by invading Iraq we are stuck there and the administration is responsible to report the truth to it's people.
It is a big fat lie for anyone to claim that Iraq is a success.
NBA, you chicken! I see the Finland flag there! Say something :D
Hahaha, Craig. Although I'm not a government spokesperson, we're a non-aligned country which doesn't take part in whatever is happening in Iraq. Therefore we're sometimes hesitant to comment external affairs. Even the government condemned the invasion in 2003 but not as hard as they should have in my opinion. This of course doesn't exclude the unsolved tragedy of the two Finnish businessmen who were slaughtered in Baghdad in 2004:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A15676-2004Mar22¬Found=true
I think it says a lot about the developments in Iraq that two years ago making a business trip there still sounded like a sensible idea and there was apparently even some talk about re-opening the embassy in Baghdad as well (staffed by locals only since 1990/1991). Sounds very unrealistic today.
If what happened in Haditha is true (we don't know yet which version of the two conflicting ones we can believe), it's nasty and disgusting, especially if there's been any cover-up attempt by the military. Of course Haditha might be also just another case like the wrong accusation of The Quran being desecrated in Guantanamo or the claim Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.
Generally, Craig, I think you're very right about wild conspiracy theories.
Highlander is right with the Darfur comparison. Whether the person committing a crime is an American, Iraqi or whatever that shouldn't make it better or worse. I certainly don't like Arab (or more generally Islamic) countries being quiet about Darfur, general human rights in those countries or shutting up on the illegal Moroccan occupation of Western Sahara while at the same time they drum Palestine all the time just because the occupying force there is not Arab.
On the other hand, it's very hard for me to understand some parts of US policy. Like Guantanamo. It irritates even some of the staunchest allies of the US like the UK and gives the US so much bad publicity and is already the best-known prison in the world (though not the most horrible one or one with the most innocent people inside on trumped up charges). The benefits of Guantanamo being as it is simply can't be bigger than the benefits its closure would bring, if we think about PR only and forget human rights.
Craig, sorry for being a chicken. Been too busy chatting with my colleague at work to be able to comment this blog LOL.
Ah and I think the "shia Taliban" expression is not very valid. It sounds like Northern Ireland becoming the Protestant Vatican or Catholic Buckingham.
NBA
It is important to remember that every war produces atrocities and that even without them, by definition, war is organized killing of (mainly innocent) people. Although not a fan of the West, Highlander seems to understand this, while many pampered Western people don't. They have minimized their thinking so much that they first say they approve the "war on terror" and then cut and run at the second when this war shows its nature of a war, i.e. brings about death of "our" people or atrocities by "our" soldiers to "their" people. Of course we must make every effort to prevent war crimes by our troops and to punish them, if they have already occurred. But this is completely irrelevant to the bigger questions about the war.
I strongly hope that the alleged Haditha or Ishaqi massacres won't "become a point of change in the history of war on Iraq similarly to the My Lai butchery in Vietnam". I regret that the My Lai massacre became such a point. This was bad not only for US, but for Asia, for the world as a whole and, above all, for Vietnam.
As Highlander knows (from an Iraqi blogger - she put a post some time ago), UK personnel treated inhumanely some German prisoners after WWII. It is good that the Allies (those who knew the story) didn't feel so guilty to cut and run from Germany and let surviving Hitler's men retake power.
I always wonder when Muslims complain of anti-Muslim "racism" - why do they try to present themselves as a race? There can be no racism against Muslims. There can be racism against Arabs, because they are an ethnic group. But the West generally tends not only to abstain from such racism, but to go too far into the opposite direction. We think that Arabs are exactly like us and if they try to subdue or kill us, this has nothing to do with their culture but only with some evil dictator twisting their inherently good nature. "US pressured Mubarak to reform and hold free elections. The US somehow thinks that if we threw little pieces of paper in a ballot box, we would be nice people and won't fly planes into buildings" (http://www.bigpharaoh.com/2006/05/21/he-knows-the-limits/) If the Iraq war becomes a failure, this will be partly due to this mistake.
Good good, comments from Maya AND the chicken, NBA :P
Ah and I think the "shia Taliban" expression is not very valid. It sounds like Northern Ireland becoming the Protestant Vatican or Catholic Buckingham.
Well, I wasn't referring to the sect. I just have seen people saying they think Iraq is going end up like Iran. I don't think Iraq (if it becomes a failed state) will be organized thuggery like Iran. I think it will be disorganized thuggery, like Taliban Afghanistan. That seems to be the direction the militias are heading. If nobody stops them.
Was this comment with meds, or without? :D
In Dr. NBA's analysis it was without until "muslim Arabs have been the aggressors against teh west for the last 30 years" WHAT!!!!!!!!! and with them since then :D.
LOL (literally).
NBA
Highlander Girl,
Glad to see you back!
I could make several points but I'll stick to just one: you are exaggerating how quickly Zarqawi was taken out.
Of course, the actual act of eliminating him came speedily. How else would it have occurred? Would they have killed him slowly?
But when it comes to tracking Zarqawi the trail has been getting hotter for weeks. Counterterrorism Blog was reporting that a team of special operations forces called Task Force 145 had been following Zarqawi closely for at least a month or so before he was killed. In fact, they reported multiple instances where Zarqawi narrowly escaped being ambushed by this group. Many of us who follow these sort of events were expecting his death (or capture) any day now in the weeks leading up to the bombing of his safehouse.
The only reason it seems to have happened quickly is because only those who weren't following the pursuit of Zarqawi (like the mass media) weren't reporting anything about ongoing efforts to capture or kill him until it actually happened.
Highlander
your having interesting debate on this blog, we need your input
now as for the debate, it is interesting
lybian warrior
curious about berbers, I remember hearing about berbers in algeria were being persecuted and demonstrations there as well. was not aware that libya had berbers in it as well
highlander
as for the article, did make some interesting points about what happened in iraq, but eventually over generalised, going into conspiracy theory territory.
The author appears to see discrimination everywhere. Reminds me of a saying "you will always find what you are looking for"
anyway highlander, your return is eagerly being awaited
Maya, what do you mean with this:
So, if an honest Arab is against globalization, he will disapprove both the Westernization(McDonaldization) of any Arab country and the Islamization of Europe. If he supports globalization, he is likely to support al-Qaida but at the same time he'll hold no hard feelings against Americans in Iraq (he may fight them but will respect their right to fight for their own cause).
That every Arab who support globalization is likely to support al-Qaida??!!?? I really don't believe so. Al-Qaida is basically against globalization, that is imposing Western values on Muslim countries. True, things like 9/11 are part of globalization but al-Qaida beasically attacks Western targets in what they think is justified retaliation for the west has done to their countries. (Of course, this is crap, al-Qaida's actions are no way justified.) And don't forget, the great majority of Arabs are sensible people like anyone else just like no sensible pro-globalization Westerner supports skinheads beating immigrants.
Where you're right, however, is in what you write about the calls for racism. I hated during the cartoon conflict when ordinary pictures in a Danish newspaper led to killings, burnings of embassies and death threats and even some Western leaders blah-blahed-blahed at the same time how we need to learn more about Islam. Surely we should, no problem with that, but it clearly seemed to me that if Muslims learned more about secularism and the West, they would have understood the context of the pictures.
And, unfortunately, there are still lessons to learn about tolerance and what we teach about other cultures.
My favourite Finnish newspaper today ran an article on 9/11 and Saudi school books. Apparently, the Saudi government promised after the attacks that hate will be downplayed in them and in the future kids will be taught about solidarity, empathy and other nice things. However, the paper quotes Saudi school books currently in use calling Jews Apes, Christians pagans and pigs and tells that real faith means that one hates pagans but treats them justly (one might wonder how well pagan immigrants are treates in Saudi Arabia) and furthermore, of course the books tell how Jews first took part in planning the French revolution, were behind World War I and brought communism to Russia. Now, according to the book, they bring alcohol, porn, prostitution and pervert arts to societies.
Huh. This is what is told about "us" to "them". So what do we teach "our kids" about "them"? The newspaper quotes Finnish school books claiming things like there has been criticism of harsh punishments such as death penalties and amputations in some Islamic countries wheer Sharia is in use because the judgements might be against human rights (WTF might be, they are!). Our kids should be told the death penalty and amputation of body parts is wrong and not load them with the slightest thought that they could be justified.
Also, there's a book with a picture of Osama bin Laden with the text "Islamic fundamentalism can be regarded as a protection of Islamic culture against Western cultural ideals".
I'm ashamed. The others have the right to call other people pigs and apes, and we don't even say aloud amputations are against human rights and we teach Osama bin Laden protects Islamic culture.
The point of this whole rant is that I simply hate double standards, conspiracy theories and the fact that tolerance is far too often one-sided.
NBA
NBA,
That every Arab who support globalization is likely to support al-Qaida??!!?? I really don't believe so.
I think Maya is right. What is globilization, to a muslim? A worldwide Umma. Global Islam.
Al-Qaida is basically against globalization, that is imposing Western values on Muslim countries.
That's what they say. But you don't have to dig very far before you get to the restoration of the Caliphate. Muslims attempted to take over the known world before. By peaceful infiltration and by force both. That's what drew the crusades out of Europe, and the Mongolian invasions out of Asia. Aggressive Islamic expansion. That's what people are talking about, when they talk aboutb the Golden Age of Islam.
I'll comment some more tomorrow, I couldn't sleep and just wanted to post this bit after reading Maya's comment, and yours.
Maybe Highlander will weigh in by then too :)
I think Maya is right. What is globilization, to a muslim? A worldwide Umma. Global Islam.
Ah, the vast majority of Muslims rather bring their money to McDonald's than send them to al-Qaida. Luckily enough.
Highlander, we need your input or is your cat on the run again?
NBA
Maya,
There are two possible pictures of the inhabited Earth: (1) many cultures each having its own place and (2) global dominance of one culture.
Good synopsis. I think I agree with you, though I never really thought about it that way. But, I think there's a third category. Somebody like me, who is neither "pro" nor "anti" globilization. I think cultural and economic ties between nations are good, up to an extent. I guess I'd draw the line at the point where one culture begins to be over-run by another.
Ah, the vast majority of Muslims rather bring their money to McDonald's than send them to al-Qaida. Luckily enough.
Maybe so, but according to Maya's theory, it was the anti-globilization group who would oppose McDonald's. The globilization folks think it's a fair fight, winner takes all.
I get the impression you think globilization is a one way street? It's not. The currents and tides run in every direction. The world may not become western. It may become asiatic (india/china) or it may become islamic. Just because the west is dominant now, does not mean it will remain so. I would say ( as an objective American:P ) that Europe is losing it's culture, right now. Losing the globalization "war".
Anyway... Mohamed Atta was well known for hanging out in bars getting drunk and associating with strippers and prostitutes... he probably ate at McDonald's too. And then he flew a plane into the world trade center.
The majority of the world's muslims think Denmark does not have a right to free speech, and they are willing to take violent measures combined with various state actions to protect Islam from Denmark. And you know what? They won. Denmark no longer has the right to free speech.
Examples of muslims who want to eat at McDonald's - AND want the whole world to be Islamic.
Wow I did not expect so many comments :) and now you all want my opinion ?
I've read each one of you and the amount of thoughts is astounding, I'm thinking of how to answer you all , whether to cut it into topics , ideas or readers ...or make a post in reply . I am also aware of the emails and will reply . Promise.
This is just a short note to say that I do read every single one of you and that I know I should be replying to a few questions raised on Maya's blog as well by the way and a meme on redenclave. I just like to do these things thoroughly after all English is not even my second language but the 3rd ...brb but you are free of course to continue with the comments the more the better :)
Take your time, Highlander... there are a lot of really long comments here :)
I deleted my last comment the first time because it was a mess, and it's still a mess! NBA, everything after the second quote (which was from your comment) was meant for you... the way I wrote it, looked like the whole thing was replying to Maya!
Libyan Warrior I did not delete your earlier insult/comment because it was offending me only , but it seems you self censored yourself this time ;) good for you.
Sorry to say that you have been an 'idiot' *yes nodding my head *. This is what I've trying to warn you against for all the past few months. You should read and look before your leap; this time it was only a blog and a virtual person, but sometimes our acts can hurt others so much and we are unable to click the delete button or the rewind switch and we may get into more trouble than we ever bargained for let alone moral pain. I really wish you could hold your fingers/tongue and count to ten -try it , it works ! If not say the things you want to say to yourself first and see how it sounds -if it does not pass the test then it should not be said to anyone or posted . I really like your wit and ideas jumping all over the place. I still maintain against all odds that I understand you and I don't think you're a 'jihadi wannabe'as Craig says (sorry Craig I really don't think he is ;) ) .Your ideas are interesting and some of the info you puut forth too , but the way you present them wrapped in profanity and hysterical anger makes the cause you are chaperoning a lost one.Think about your goal and focus on it, don't get lost or sidetracked....Think about it ? how do you win a case or gain someone to your side ? You cannot do it by force, you have to let your opponent walk towards you willingly and shake your hand, because forcing him/her with a shotgun will only get him/her to bite you when the time is ripe.
I accept your apology but please go in this world and give a good name to Libyans and Berbers. Berbers are a great and proud ancient people they are as much your ancestors as they are mine so please keep their memory beautiful and sacred, I'm sure you can do it !
PS you cracked me up with this :
"Anyway where is Highlander, I would love get her input. She is probably of doing some type of good deed as we speak, maybe putting out a fire, working in a hospital, helping the homeless, or something of that nature."
How did you know I actually do that all the time ...maybe that's why no Libyan guy in his right mind wants to go near me lol ;)
Special note to NBA:
Thank you for sticking up for me. You don't know how much I appreciate this gesture, as much as I liked you a lot before as a reader, now you have won my friendship :)
Ask anyone who knows me , having Highlander on your side is a plus - boy do I sound arrogant ?
Craig, regarding Denmark. You know how pessimistic and, erm, overdramatic I was about the cartoons case, yet I'm much more optimistic now. Things have calmed down and Denmark didn't really bow. It's like the Rushdie case (I was a little bit too young then to remember all of it plus there was no real Internet then so I could have followed it as well as one can follow it now). Surely there were events then which looked like censorship won but it didn't. And apparently Danish products are now more demanded in the boycotting countries than they were before the calls for boycott.
I'd label myself pro-globalization although not uncritically. Perhaps it's also because here in the West anti-globalization has been hijacked by leftists and anarchists who think McDonald's, Shell and Nestlé are the real Axis of Evil ;). I enjoy things from other countries and cultures, yet I wouldn't like foreign values to dominate here over ours (whatever they are). Here I mainly refer to things such as democracy, freedom of speech and the like. At the same time I'm not completely logical because I want those Western values to dominate everywhere. Read: my values should dominate all over the world but no foreign values should dominate over mine. Horrible and chauvinistic indeed. And still more, I simply wouldn't love non-Western countries to turn more Western on the superficial level. I've enjoyed on my travels to the Middle East that people wear dishdashas and abayas (as long as that is voluntary of course) and not jeans and t-shirts, I've enjoyed local music, architecture, cuisine and such and enjoy that these are more readily available in such peripheric countries as mine (and yes, I frequent McDonald's as well).
LW, you shouldn't generalize... although I do the same talking about Arab/Islamic countries as a block which it isn't (Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Indonesia are not very similar). Countries such as Bulgaria or Finland have not killed billions but have indeed been colonized by foreign powers. Countries such as the USA, UK, France or Germany (not even to mention Russia) have killed lots of people and been involved in very nasty things, yet it's not the fault of every individual in these countries neither that of every government in those countries. Just like I can criticize Saudi school books yet the Saudis I've met myself are just OK, not to mention other Arabs who are even nicer people.
Highlander, thanks a lot. Your comment is truly appreciated. You're definitely worth support from your readers. You treated me nicely yourself when I almost turned into a proto-LW here some months ago LOL.
You're sure Libya has definitely ended its WMD program? I mean, your friendship is appreciated but some military back-up wouldn't hurt if I get into some real trouble hehehehehe. Maybe Craig can help with that part (besides he's spent more time in the military than I have myself).
NBA
Libyan warrior , would please stop this taunting attitude? giddash marra nibi nfahmek . Mish hadi tarika liltafahum yabni wa ba3din hada kharej al maudu3.
I doubt you know Arabic . But here is hoping you do !
highlander
good to see you back again
lybian warrior
If the 1/2 million, you mean the tsuanami then the world did stop and donated large amounts of money to the countries affected
Here in the UK, the charities were actually overwhelmed and were actually asking people not to donate more money for this as they had more than enough
As for the london bombings, that was a terrorist attack which did merit some mention at least
LW,
attempting to destroy the image of Arabs and muslim
I thought that was your job!? Or do you handle the "destroy the image of berbers and muslims" part instead? :P
AlanK, I suggest you don't try to engage LW on any of his issues, he doesn't care much about substatiating anything he says. He just makes stuff up and throws it out there for "debate" and such. And the more outrageously offensve, the better.
NBA,
Maybe Craig can help with that part (besides he's spent more time in the military than I have myself).
Heh... we need to get Highlander's sometimes reader "Tater" in on this, so we can get some close air support :)
I guess I don't really have much disagreement with you, NBA... I'm probably someplace between you and Maya, at least on the globalization/clash of cultures/whatever issue.
We need more muslims like Highlander immigrating to the US. And fewer like like Libyan Warrior. I think the two of them illustrate the issue just about perfectly. A dangerous nutcase on one hand, and a wonderful human being on the other. Both Libyan and both muslim. How did things go so wrong with the angry guy?
I am writing my reply .. you guys wrote so much that I needed to actually go and prin it :)
hmmm blogging is a full time job ....*sigh*
Yes, hot thread :)
BTW, Highlander... I thought your translation was better than hers. You made an effort to check her sources. Also, she quoted General McAffrey and didn't even come close on his name - she called him mcferry or something :P - so I don't know how much weight we are supposed to put on the quality of her quoting! In general, your version was easier to read, in my opinion. But I'm probably not unbiased :D
I'm sorry that the other participants several times called me to reply and I didn't, but I haven't as much time for blogging as I wish. Possibly so was better - I have no right to steal Highlander's blog, have I? NBA, compliments for your knowledge of Bulgarian history. Programmer Craig, I also don't want non-Western values imposed on the West and in the same time I want Western values imposed everywhere, but what's so wrong with this view, after we admit it? World is becoming global, whether we like it or not. Bin Laden's people figured this out before us and put a globe on their logo. It's them or us and everybody has to make a choice.
Highlander seems still torn between the two sides and I hope she'll finally jump to the Western side. BTW when I wrote "honest Arab", I meant a member of traditional Arab culture. But there are also many Arabs (e.g. bloggers Sandmonkey, Freedom for Egyptians and Nadz) who have accepted the values of the West. Possibly their ranks incluse also handsome Libyan bachelors aged 25-35 and Highlander just needs to look around :).
LibyanWarrior seems to stand firmly on the enemy side, but I still have hopes for him, because he is so young. LibyanWarrior, as somebody asked you before me, what do you expect when participating in a debate with such a hot, emotional tone? You repulsed even Highlander, who could at least partly agree with you. You remind me myself at your age, when I and a fellow student went to negotiate with a teacher. Before knocking at the door, my colleague turned to me and said, "Let ME speak, OK?"
You seem obsessed with the idea that all your opponents are hopeless racists. My photo is shown at www.mayamarkova.com, you can see that my hair and eyes are brown. So what? My favourite USA is full of coloured people. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who (I guess) is much darker than you, is at the top of my heroes' list.
What do you mean by denying that the Danish cartoon crisis was created by Arabs? The firebrand imams had Arab names and went to Arab countries for help. I was careful when choosing my example. I didn't write, "When Arabs go to Britain, blow up subway trains and buses and then demand a ban on Piglet, it's invasion", because I know London bombers weren't Arabs, and I don't know the national origin of the Muslims campaigning against Piglet.
I was first amazed when you wrote so confidently about the moral superiority of Muslims to Westerners. Then, from your later comments, I understood that your enemies are some Westerners conceived by Muslim propaganda who don't exist and have never existed in the real world. Westerners who enjoy the deaths of tsunami victims and infect Libyan children with HIV. Believe this - you'll believe everything.
but in order to stay on my land, I.E from Egypt to the cannary islands they must except islamic values
Your land? When you gonna go claim it, then? Your just another snotty American kid. You think the place where your parents was born makes you special? makes you "better" than all the other American kids? With your mouth, you wouldn't last a day in Libya. Try it and see. Or better yet, travel to Iraq and drive the invaders out. I bet you'd be running to the nearest US soldier looking for a ride back to the airport before you even got your bags unpacked :D
Do you need some info on how to renounce your US citizenship, ALA? I can provide that to you. I'm with you, man. The middle east belongs to you. Go stake your claim. Your standing on my land now, and if I ever find you, that's going to change.
Maya, don't waste your time with LW.... he's smart enough to know that the things he says are blatantly false. He doesn't say them to discuss, he says them to insult. Look at the way he blamed you personally for every wrong Europeans have ever done in one comment, and then says you aren't even european in the next. It's a waste of time. You defeat him on one lie and he'll just abandon it and throw three more lies at you.
You are right, Programmer Craig, LibyanWarrior knows very well what he's doing. In fact, the more I read his rants, the more they seem a kind of pleas for help. LibyanWarrior, if you consider advice from an European rat (or a non-European rat? Be as you like :) ), tell somebody what eats you. I have the feeling that 7mada could be the right person, why not contact him at http://tarrabulus.blogspot.com/. Or somebody else. I would advise Libyans to contact you, but you seem to have shut yourself out.
In Dr. NBA's analysis LW suffers from something we could call chronic troll syndrome.
See the description of the symptoms for example at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll :).
NBA
LW, you have dual citizenship. You hate America. You love Libya. Renounce your US citizenship and get out of my country. Never come back. You don't belong here. This place is not for people like you. Go spend the rest of your life in a Libyan prison, you'll be much happier.
Go back to England? Why not send me all the way back to Germany dude! So what my family left Germany 1600 years ago, eh? :P
That's not the point. The point is that I like the United States. You don't. I don't have dual citizenship. You do. You are a Libyan national. You say you love Libya. Vote with your feet. If Libya is great, go live there. I'm sure the Q-man will be very interested in your input.
You are a Libyan national. You say you love Libya. Vote with your feet. If Libya is great, go live there. I'm sure the Q-man will be very interested in your input.
Craig, you're sure you want to impose the fate of sharing the same small country with LW on Highlander?
It's true, however, that some twists of LW's rhetoric are not very unlike from those of the Q-man (loved that term). I remember his earlier stream of consciousness on Islam and Europe which I posted here but which disappeared with the rest of the thread, apparently with input by LW. Would have been a great occasion for some linguistic analysis.
NBA
What a shame if only the vikings of old where here today what would they say.
"Hakkaa päälle!" is my guess :D
And then they'd kill you and take your stuff. And your women.
Hahahahaha, Craig, you amaze me. Actually this is what www.military.com writes about Hakkaa päälle:
Hakkaa Päälle -- the term is Finnish for "Cut them down," and it's been passed down from the Finnish cavalry of Gustavus Adolphus in the 17th century to the Finnish infantry during the Russo-Finn Winter War in the 20th century.
Hehehehe, almost LOL. So, it was not used by Vikings (who actually ravaged in Finland and spoke Norse or whatever) but by my presumed ancestors when they ravaged in Europe some hundreds of years ago, probably causing a couple of Hadithas which nobody knows about because theer was no press of today's kind then. Or, in LW's vocabulary, took part in a great family feud.
I think, however, it was no longer used in the Finnish-Russian war. Especially it was no longer used when I was in the military myself which of course was well after WW II.
Highlander, please come back ASAP. A certain troll provocateur has succeeded in turning the discussion to something very different from what it should have been.
NBA
Oh Well. I was trying for something Finnish!
In the meantime, while we wait for H to get this discussion back on track, I found this trailer for LibyanWarrior:
Young Americans Trailer
So this is where the AngryOne has been spending his days.
How are you, LW?
(By the way, LW, I'm actually more a paleo-con than a neo-con.)
Some of you have been discussing the means and the ends of the GWoT. Here is an brief op-ed worth reading:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/dwest.htm
Shame on the more reasonable!
Finally, LW posted something that looks like a sample of his real thoughts. I mean the comment "war kills a part of you".
When somebody calls himself a warrior, you of course want to know who his enemy is. Are we, LW? Or the entire reality?
As thinking creatures, we humans have double nature. We are particles of the world and in the same time stay in opposition to it. I suspect that in LW the balance is somewhat shifted towards the staying in opposition. Just look at his writings: these "u"s and "r"s and "2"s and even "Lybian". Why not write "you" and "are" and "to" like everybody else? I guess, because it would be conformism, bowing one's head to the world.
New places are opening in town, check my blog where you will find the spots that might interest you while roaming Tripoli. In July will have international spots for Meat lovers.
Hot discussion you guys have here keep the tummies full while discussing these hot issues with crispy fried chicken some hot sauce-mayo and pinacolada. Yogurt after words might just make your day better.
OT
Excellent blog, Ontripoli... you're making me hungry! You're also making me want to visit Tripoli to sample one of those spicy Tuna sandwiches :)
(hi highlander!) ;)
libian warrior, ur H4xx0R dznt sk4r m3. ;)
there are iraqis and black folk in the teasers for Young Americans--look at the new youtubes.
i need to disabuse you on the NORK death camps. i've seen the eo. there is a whole generation of NORK kids in fifth grade now that are stunted and rickety from malnutrition. 3 million civs died. so far.
i don't think this is a war between the west and islam....it is a war between humans and demons (homosapiens vs homodemonicus).
i gotta ask, which are you?
i should clarify, for the learning-impaired.
kim jong il is a demon.
Sayeed Ali al-Sistani is a human.
muqtada al-sadr is a demon.
hitler was a demon.
get it?
and highlander, shukran for the translation. dr. bouitha is right, there is homo demonicus on both sides.
the difference is, we try and punish our demons.
Dear All,
Thank you for such a passionate conversation. I don’t mean to be away for so long . I take my blogging too seriously ( loool gosh I sound so stuffy and pompous). I like to give due importance to each and everyone who had made the effort to participate, but I guess that leaves me lagging behind at times.
Nevertheless, June has not been a perfect month as there has been 2 more deaths in my family ( great uncles ) and social functions in Libya are unforgiving on this front – ask the other Libyan bloggers who live here.
I’m sorry that the conversation has gone slightly off topic at times and that I was not there to control it.
I do have some good news to share as well by the way. If you are interested , the cat is much better. Her eye has healed and she can see properly now which is a relief. So yay it was worth it to climb the neighborhood walls for her -I will have a scar on my hand though to show :(
Ok now for the answers you’ve been looking for . I hope I don’t disappoint you .I think I’ll divide them by commenter for easier reference.
Hi Craig and thanks again for your input :)
I'm not her target audience
Who do you think is her target audience ? any idea who this writer is ? just because she did not sound pro-West does that disqualify her thought process?
Just a little bit of info about Dr Bouthaina Shaaban , she is among other things a Nobel Peace Prize nominee for 2005 .
“The Swiss peace foundation nominated 53 Arab ladies, out of 1,000 women from various countries, to get the Nobel Peace Prize.[…] from Egypt Nada Thabet, who is responsible for Al-Amal village to get the Nobel Peace Prize.
Among the Arab nominees are Dr. Hanan Ashrawi, member of the Palestinian Legislative Council and human rights activist, Louza Hannoun, head of the Algerian Labour Party, Sheikha Lobna Al-Qasemi, Minister of Economy of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and Sheikha Loloa bent Mahmoud Khalifa, Head of Society of Childhood and Motherhood in Bahrain.
The list also includes 16 women from Sudan, eight from Palestine, three from Jordan, three from Kuwait, three from Saudi Arabia, three from Syria, two from Algeria, two from Iraq, two from Mauritania, two from Morocco,one from Bahrain, one from Lebanon, one from Libya, one from Qatar, one from Somalia and one from Yemen.”
Links:
http://www.wataninet.com/article_en.asp?ArticleID=2914
or
http://www.arabnews.com/services/print/print.asp?artid=65873&d=25&m=6&y=2005&hl=1,000%20Women%20for%20the%20Nobel%20Peace%20Prize
or
http://www.1000peacewomen.org/typo/index.php?id=38&L=1
Now one of the 3 Syrian women is Ms Bouthaina and here is the link :
http://www.1000peacewomen.org/typo/index.php?id=14&L=1&WomenID=2371
(off topic I was curious about who the who Libyan woman was , so here she is :
http://www.1000peacewomen.org/typo/index.php?id=14&L=1&WomenID=138 )
This is interesting don’t you think? Dr. Shaaban is not a simple ‘propagandist' it seems and she has a lot of international participations.
http://www.cfr.org/publication/5902/syria_and_the_united_states.html
Your attitude that it's OK for the Americans do act like animals because everyone else acts like animals is an improvemnet over the Arab media, which seems to think any amount of barbarity is acceptable, when it comes from Arabs [sic]
Please don't put words in my mouth. It is not acceptable for anyone to act like animals, I simply said that this kind of barbarism did not surprise me in a war situation. It's what the military is trained for right ? victory - the ultimate goal, eradicating the enemy ...some individuals are a little overzealous with their interpretation. If they can get away with it, it's great if not then they get exposed just as we've seen now.
As for Arab barbarity, the Arab terrorist we are at war with do not represent any organised state it is a ragtag collection of individuals and consequently they are not held accountable like a regular army composed of the elite whom we expect to look up to.
Believe you me, you do NOT want to encourage Americans to respond to Arab savagery with the same savagery we've been shown.
What is that supposed to mean? it sounds like a threat .... ( which I’m sure you did not mean it to ).
Also why do you think the US should wage total war ?Does that mean that every Arab should not speak and count himself lucky that the US has not waged total war ? because otherwise this is what it is going to happen if Arabs don't toe the line ?
Yes America has suffered in 9/11 but that is not a reason for all Arabs to feel guilty about it or pay for it. If it is a number ratio of dead, then I think the dead on both sides have evened out and probably the scale is more heavily tipped toward the Arab side.
But that is not what I've been told that the war on Iraq was. Never once did I officially hear that it was to avenge those murdered in 9/11.The excuse was WMD , then when that failed it was turned into a humanitarian intervention of liberating the Iraqi people.. which means Iraqis did not have to die right? because both the occupation and the people = the good guys, while Saddam and some of his entourage = bad guys.
I think we are talking about ALL Arabs
The author of the article is treating all Arabs as a single block, because she is noting that the negative treatment is dished out at all Arabs as a single block. So nope we are not having a semantics argument my friend, but if we should stick with the term all Arabs as you asked then my question is :
Why was Iraq singled out for invasion ? why not carpet bombing Morocco, or obtaining vengeance by erasing Egypt ? why not Saudi Arabia or Tunisia. Or just kill everyone affiliated with the Arab concept.... But a selection has been made and that is why I sometimes say Arabs, and at others particular countries. the criteria keeps shifting, actually I don't even know what they are, if it was revenge then Saudi Arabia is the most natural target.
But the problem is not that simple is it not ? and the article is lumping together a lot of stories. The East Londoners arrested wrongly are merely Muslim, not Arab. So now do we have to revise our criteria? So the enemy is not just Arabs because those are the perpetrators of 9/11 but they are also Muslims. Muslims are the enemy... that is different. Why not then wage total war on the site with the most Muslims ? For example Indonesia or Nigeria or Iran...somehow it does not look right does it ? So it's back to Arabs because that is more fun and it's easier to vilify them with all the stereotyping over the years. How are we going to draw cartoon of Indonesian sheiks with bombs, knives hooked noses, they don't fit the style it would look ridiculous. Pakistanis or Bangladeshi can be made to look 'Arabic'.
What has become known as the Arab world in the modern era is a land that stretches from the Atlantic Ocean to the border of Iraq. That includes a whole bunch of people many of whom share a common history and language and who are in majority born into Islam but who's fate ( and not faith) has diverged in modern times. Did an Arab government attack or invade a European state or America in modern times - unless you want to put Israel as a western state :) .
Or is the US indirectly retaliating a quarter of a century later for the 1979 seizing of the US Embassy by Muslim non-Arab Iranians, by waging war against the Arabs :)
The article lumped the immigrant population in Europe as well, how are we going to wage total war on these ? send them to concentration camps, label them and kill them? catch them by the facial characteristic? is that not racist? what about Anglo looking Muslims how can we classify those?
I guess it is not that easy to generalize Craig , and so saying Arabs when the situation requires it and ‘Iraqi’ when it does is still the better solution , and not because it suits me , but because that is the fact on the ground.
You say that nothing in the Arab press should be taken at face value .
Whose press then should be taken at face value? Who would it be acceptable to quote and be credible in people's eyes ?
Like you I believe that there is no connection between Zarqawi and Haditha, and probably anyone realizes that . What the author was trying to analyze on the other hand was whether these two events along with the other string are connected politically.
Sometimes I wonder myself that with all the American technical capabilities, how come Zarqawi was not apprehended or Bin Ladin for that matter. Don’t they make phone calls ? But then when my suspicious mind calms down I realize that if that were the case then they could have also found all those missing hostage too… and that’s how I calm down :)
who is doing the sectarian killings? Why is she asking this question?
The sectarian card plays very well in the hands of showing how unstable Iraq is and that it requires an iron hand = more occupation . It is also a good trump card both to Iranian and Israeli interests. Those are the 3 most obvious entities benefiting from chaos in Iraq at first glance. But when we take a second look I think that Al-Qaida and its franchises and copy cats are the next in line, and the Shia militants who want to create a Shia Taliban state as you say – ex: Muqtada Sadr and his ilk. These are the entities which gained so much from this war .
From reading Iraqi blogs we find that the sectarian differentiation was not present prior to 2003. The mosaic forming the population of Iraq, intermarried, lived together and suffered together Saddam’s repression and international sanctions, except for a tiny minority composed of his clan and some ‘courtisans’ ( people who crave favour). However, the Shia though were prevented from carrying out the most extreme of their cultural practices – which is the self flagellation to the point of injury. While this action is not condoned by Islam, as God does not wish us to destroy the beautiful outer shell he gave us I would say that Saddam was wrong to prevent this , it is non- of his business, let only God be judge whose practices are right or wrong. So when the south of Iraq over which he had feeble control rose, the American government at that time stood with Saddam against them and helped in that genocide of the people of the south who happened to be Shia.
With regards to the behaviour of occupation forces in Iraq, you must note that I was impressed with the integrity of some of the whistleblowers who revealed the improper conduct and appreciate that some wrongdoers are being brought to justice. However, that still leaves the military people- who are the ones with weapons- in a strong position to go unchecked in Iraq as opposed to the ordinary citizen which form the bulk of Iraqis and not the insurgents, or other combatants. For every honest and God fearing US personnel there are others whom neither you nor I can vouch and ‘sh*t ‘ happens.
I think she talks about the ethics of people who are accountable for their acts and who claim a moral superiority. “Insurgents” as you say are not exactly morally superior are they ? or they would not have been using these unethical and barbaric tactics. As for the bunch of civilians watching what do you expect them to do against armed thugs ? the civilians are loosing their lives daily and if they moved an inch for someone who was already dead they or someone they loved was gonna die anyway . These civilian my friend have seen so much violence that they must have become kind of blasé about it . I’m not excusing them but some people have no stomach for heroics anymore, that’s what you get in a war situation since 1979.
If caught alive the perpetrators will be charged I assume, but I don’t think the bystanders will ever be, neither you nor I nor anyone knows who harboured fugitives – so the question is rhetorical.
Your sense of moral and ethics re. troops misconduct is commendable, but I think you are mistaken re. the Arab press, which is very different from one countrie to another, they mostly do not condone the terrorists but they are still against foreign forces in Iraq and I’m sure you know that deep down. However the situation of the troops is ambiguous to say the least as sometimes we don’t know the good guys from the bad ones, and the bad guys ruin the good guys image as these are the ones who get in the media.
Now for some of your response to other readers here ( if you are interest in my opinion )
Iraq invading Iran and Kuwait = bad guys
US invading Iraq = bad guys which makes Iraq the good guys this time.
Yes loooooooooool I’m a pan-Arabist Craig and I’m proud of it yet sometimes I feel secretly guilty as I should be a pan-Islamist ( in the sense of Muslim not ‘jihadis)’– I guess I’m still a hopeless romantic at heart, caring more about Arab nationalism ( Arab in the sense of the current peoples inhabiting the geographical North Africa and ME - exclude the Turks and Iranians) then Muslim one .
I’m not going to argue about who the aggressor are in Iraq, because Muslim Arabs have been the aggressors against the West for the last 30 years
Now that for me is bit mysterious, as far as I recall I have not seen tanks and armies rolling into Europe or boats sailing towards America. I have not seen one single Arab state declare war against a Western country. What I have seen though are Arab countries caught in Cold War tactics between the West and the communist and I have seen criminal acts carried out by Arab terrorists on Western properties and lives, or immigrant populations in Europe acting like gangster which is undistinguishable from the gangsters in America. I have seen economic threats from both sides as well. So to claim that all Arab Muslims have been waging a war against the West is slightly exaggerated statement in my opinion don’t you think ? As I’m sure I’m repeating myself here I have not seen an occupying Arab army camping in Paris or in Washington DC , but what I have seen is a multinational coalition force led by the US and camping in the middle of Baghdad and I still can’t think why yet – although now they have a reason.
Thank you for your faith in me that I do not support the terrorist, I wish you would not mix the Umma and what it stands for. This word is very tricky now after it has been twisted and turned so much, just like jihad.
I do expect Maya and others to differentiate between Arabs and Islam in the ME because the reality on the ground says that the ME and NA is composed of my states now and over the last 50 years a sense of individual nationalism is being reared and has emerged to the detriment of the die hard pan-Arabist like me lol. You are making the same mistake that some of us make when we lump Euros or Americans in the same baskets. I’m sure not all countries support each others foreign policies .
As for berbers they are original inhabitants of NA , Morocco, Algeria, Tunis, Libya . They are a great and rich civilization, they are wonderful people and they come in all colours and shapes now. In fact they are undistinguishable from the rest of the population unless they chose to speak Amazigh out loud. In fact I could easily pass for one. That is the extent of my knowledge for detailed info you would have to talk to blogger A.Grada, or Nura. ( they are on my side bar).
Re. the United States funding Shia militias and groups which you have acknowledged, is not because they are the majority but because they are a potential ally against the Sunnis. Choosing their side as you so well explained I don’t like what they are doing, but I don’t have a personal grievance against the Shia either is exactly that loud and clear, not for the benefit of Iraq , but for the security of the troops, it does not matter that the Shia are also cruel to their own. And if you are agreeing with LW that this is a family dispute , then nobody should get involved and let the fight stop.
I’m going to marry an Arab woman too, and half ½ anglo ½ arab kids looool that’s so sweet , you realize that they will be ‘related’ to LW :) .
RE. the Globalization . May people have a different stand with regards to globalization, so again here we should not generalize too much. I’ll make a post about globalization maybe or respond to it in my comment to Maya perhaps. So stay tuned..
RE. Crusades and Mongolian invasion allow me to express make a special post about that as well :) .
The Earth should be comprised of many cultures each having its own place as Maya said , that’s even what the Qur’an advocates, imperialism is when one culture want to dominate ( and that’s not fun ). Your third theory Craig is not really different it’s more like an expansion on number one ‘the many cultures meeting and doing business.
The world may become Asiatic, or Muslim , why not or Jewish or Christian or Bhudist ? Asiatic is a race while the rest are religions. Muslim and Arab are not interchangeable to me . But I’ll tell you about my theory on dominance of Islam in the near future where hopefully no nation would loose its culture.
By the way guys someone should note all the posts I promised to write otherwise I will forget.
Craig I don’t know where Tater is but I know that he does read my blog at least once a week :) .
Thank you also for your kind compliments about be being a wonderful human being , I’m all blushes and my head will get big soon :) .
As for my translation I thought it was a nice one as well loool , but I’m biased .
OK guess I’m done with all of Programmer Craig’s comments now its Libyan Warrior, NBA, Twosret, Maya, Tommy, Alan , Suliman, Ontripoli and Matuko ( I hope I have not forgotten anyone), by order of who appeared first :) .
Should be done soon.
Matoko, good comments, you convey a lot with those brief statements :)
LW,
I am on the side of good, I am on the side of compasion, I am on the side of mercy
You the same guy who said people in EGypt deserved to be imprisoned and sodomized in Egypt, for the crime of being Christian? I feel it necessary right about now to point out that you're not the guy in the white hat. You're the dude with the greasy mustache who ties damsels in distress to the train tracks. To put it in the cartoon terms we all seem to enjoy :D
Oh wow! H just posted a monster comment, that's the biggest comment I ever saw in my life! Now I have to print this out and study it, back soon! :)
highlander
take your time with the posting, no need to burn yourself out reading all of that
also condolances over your family losses, hopefully that will be the end of that for a long time now
lybian warrior
you were probably tired or just fed up at the time you replied to me. Actually if you want to be pedantic, only england counts as anglo, scotland usually just use scots or jocks but not important
also as for the original post, the article was interesting in covering a wide range of events. However a little more skeptical about the linking, some of it appeared to be a little over the top. Still it obviously did its job in stimulating a debate (making my own blog jealous, only a few comments recently, compared to your 80+)
You are wrong on several counts, Highlander. I'll address four of them:
1) the excuse was WMD , then when that failed it was turned into a humanitarian intervention of liberating the Iraqi people.
Actually, as White House press briefings dating back from the time of the initial invasion demonstrate, liberating the Iraqi people and fostering democracy in the region has always been a goal of this endeavour. It was not "thought up" as an excuse later:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030226-11.html
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/04/20030428-3.html
2) Why not then wage total war on the site with the most Muslims ?
A rhetorical question, no doubt. I'll address it anyway: because we are not like our opponents, it is that simple.
Our opponents in this war, not all Muslims but always Muslim, nonetheless, are waging a total war against the non-Muslims of the world. They have their own vision of "pan-Arabism" or, more accurately, "pan-Islamism"; namely, the establishment of a global caliphate.
3) Yes America has suffered in 9/11 but that is not a reason for all Arabs to feel guilty about it or pay for it.
Has the United States ever asked for the sympathy of the Muslim world?
Never. This is common straw man put up by Muslims.
No, the US never asked for sympathy but the United States has asked the Muslim world to knock it off. We are tired of the nonstop terrorism we see emanating from the Islamic world while the coreligionists of these terrorists offer up nothing but excuses and platitudes. If there is one thing that distinguishes Islam, it is the ubiquity of the terrorism and extremism that accompanies it everywhere in the world -- and I do mean everywhere. When in comes to Islamic extremism, there is no comparable phenomenon either qualitatively or quantitatively in modern Christianity or Judaism.
If you want to get a gauge of how widespread the problem is, go to this website and scroll down the page below and look at the terrorist attacks that have occurred in just the past five months:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Nobody wants the empty sympathy of the Muslim world. What we want is an end to terrorism.
4) The sectarian card plays very well in the hands of showing how unstable Iraq is and that it requires an iron hand = more occupation
Perhaps you haven't been following the news recently. All efforts are focused on reducing the violence so that we can reduce our military footprint in the country. (And, in fact, troop presence in the country has went down in recent months somewhat as native Iraqi soldiers come on line.)
The idea that the United States is somehow encouraging violence so that it can remain their longer is the sort of laughable nonsensical conspiratorial mindset
The real question is why do Muslims, particularly Arabs, have such conspiratorial mindsets. You know, the same sort of mindset that denies that 9/11 was the work of Muslims.
Richard Landes takes a stab at explaining it:
http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2006/06/18/mainstreaming-conspiracy-theories-culture-wars-moral-equivalence-and-suicidal-paradigms/
http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2006/06/19/mainstreaming-conspiracy-theories-i-arab-conspiracy-thinking-before-and-after-2000/
http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2006/06/21/mainstreaming-conspiracy-theories-iii-american-conspiracies-and-9-11/
http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2006/06/22/mainstreaming-conspiracy-theories-iv-moral-equivalence-and-multiculturalism/
Hi Tommy :)
I did not discount conspiracy theories did I ? check what I said here 'To some of you it may smack of fantasy and conspiracy theories, but the events when thrown toghether this should at least lead us think..If not in the direction she wished then at least to one of a different viewpoint.After all maybe things should not always be taken at face value'.
Thank you for all those I'm really going to read them, because I like learning all aspects of a story to make up my mind. I appreciate the efforts you've put in actually reading that 'monster comment' as Craig said.
Probably more monster comments coming up ..soon
I'm going to try to pick only a few things to reply to, H, to reduce people's eye strain :)
Who do you think is her target audience ?
Arabs. Yes, I know who she is, I read her bio. Being a nobel nominee doesn't amount to much, in my opinion. She was only nominated, which presumably means she's less qualified to win a "peace" prize than Yasser Arafat? Hmmm...very democratic, the way they nominated x number from each arab country. What happened to the idea of nominating people by merit? Anyway, enough said about that. I bet Adolf Hitler would be a nobel peace laureate if he was alive today.
No I don't "disqualify" her mind-set, I just think that she's wrong.
Dr. Shaaban is not a simple ‘propagandist' it seems and she has a lot of international participations.
So does Jimmy Carter... and Jimmy Carter is (in my opinion) the last person on this earth that should be listened to, when it comes to international affairs. The man is a meanace. It's too bad we can't persuade our enemies to elect him President of *their* countries :O
It's what the military is trained for right ? victory - the ultimate goal, eradicating the enemy ...some individuals are a little overzealous with their interpretation.
Yes, enemies are to be destoyed, but classifying a non-combatant as an enemy is more than overzealous, it's criminal.
If they can get away with it, it's great if not then they get exposed just as we've seen now.
Nope. I'm in total opposition with you on that, Highlander. That's the kind of thinking that has caused the human rights disaster that the Middle-East is. I don't wnat MY country, to be like yours. No offense intended, but your way sucks.
As for Arab barbarity, the Arab terrorist we are at war with do not represent any organised state it is a ragtag collection of individuals and consequently they are not held accountable like a regular army composed of the elite whom we expect to look up to.
Disagree with you here too. The Revolutionary Guards in Iran are the primary abusers of the human rights of Iranians. Saddam's Republican Guards were the murders and torturers of the Iraqi government. I could go on, but you get my point. Nobody "looks up" to those animals. The US military is not like that. Don't encourage it to be so. You would be very, very sorry if Americans started behaving in that way.
Yes, I did mean it as a threat - or a warning, at least - you seem to have no real idea of what the US military could unleash if we actually DID conduct warfare the way you suggest we do.
I think I've talked enough about this, so I'll skip over the rest.
If it is a number ratio of dead, then I think the dead on both sides have evened out and probably the scale is more heavily tipped toward the Arab side.
It's not about numbers. It's about justice. The war ends when the terrorists are gone, forever. You really don't believe it's a war of ideology, do you? You think we're just trying to kill enough Arabs to satisfy the American public that something has been done?
You seriously need to re-examine the situation, Highlander. The US is deadly serious about changing the status quo in the middle east.
Why was Iraq singled out for invasion ?
Because it was determined Iraq was the fulcrum upon which the entire middle east would pivot. I think the neocons were right about that... but they've been unable (so far) to get anything like the success story they wanted for Iraq.
why not carpet bombing Morocco, or obtaining vengeance by erasing Egypt ?
See my previous statment about re-examining your understanding of what the US is trying to accomplish.
So the enemy is not just Arabs because those are the perpetrators of 9/11 but they are also Muslims.
The enemy is terrorism.
Muslims are the enemy...
The enemy is terrorism.
Why not then wage total war on the site with the most Muslims ?
The enemy is terrorism.
I'll just leave it at that, Highlander. This is why I disputed both the author of that article, and you. I just think your thought processes on this issue are flatly wrong. And I know you well enough to know that you can see they are wrong, my dear Highlander, but you don't want to see it, for some reason. It's more comfortable for you to see the US as the bad guy, and muslims/arabs as the victims.
Which is fine... but don't expect to understand what the US is up to, when you view American policy and objectives through that filter.
That's enough commenting from me for now, I may come back later and try to address some of your other points :)
Oh, one more thing... about the umma and jihad...
a)whose fault is it that the definitions got "twisted"
b) did they, in fact, get twisted? As far as I can tell (looking at history) jihad and umma have always meant exactly what they mean know - in practice, if not in theory. I think it's intellectually dishonest to claim otherwise. But I understand why people do.
Highlander, thanks for your long commentary. I'm awaiting your fiction of the Islamic future - I've been looking forward to it ever since I offered mine :).
About whether Israel is a Western state - yes, it is. In our discussion, "Western" means "related to the Western civilization" and Israel belongs there; so do Japan and South Korea, it's not geography.
I know of course that some Arabs are Christians, but it is Islam that makes Arabs a force in the world, therefore I am sometimes simplifying and equating Arabs to Islam. Also, I think Islam is much more important for Arabs than for other Muslim nations. It is explicitly written in the Koran that it is "given" in Arabic. Almost all Arab heritage and culture is Islamic. Islam is the source of the lethal Arab honour. And unlike you, Highlander, I think that pan-Arabism is in a very good state and the modern "individual" nationalism (Egyptian, Moroccan etc.) is meager and declining. So I see the pan-Arab "nation" as the leader of the Muslim world and I think that even if the Western civilization is to prevail, Arab countries will join it last. Therefore, I often differentiate Arabs from other Muslims.
LW, during this discussion I went to your blog to cite some your examples of nasty behaviour by Muslims (e.g. the Afghan thugs who threatened a female MP). But the posts were deleted and I realized that you were feeling unhappy. When you resume blogging, I advise you to put fewer and smaller pictures (some of your readers may not enjoy good Internet connection) and to choose light background and dark font color (easier to read). And when writing angrily against Jews, what comments exactly are you expecting? Eh well, I didn't comment at all, just thought, "How sad! Another infected kid."
About whether Israel is a Western state - yes, it is. In our discussion, "Western" means "related to the Western civilization" and Israel belongs there; so do Japan and South Korea, it's not geography.
Maya, I disagree with you on this, although I haven't been to any of those countries you mentioned above myself. Israel might have some Western characteristics due to a large part of its population having roots in Europe. Israel is the closest thing to a democracy in the ME, yet it's not a Western democracy mainly due to its treatment of its own Arab citizens and now I'm not talking about the occupied territories and their population but non-Jewish citizens in Israel proper. I think I recommended Susan Nathan's The Other Side of Israel here before and am doing it now again (especially for Highlander but also for those who are more pro-Israeli than anti-Israeli).
For a review, check for example http://www.calitreview.com/Reviews/otherside_064.htm.
Of course I must also mention that Israel still treats its citizens better than any other ME countries which is why it's annoying to read anti-Israeli rants that don't see Israel's problems in the proper context.
Japan and South Korea as well as places such as Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore are developed industrial countries but no way part of the Western civilization and at least Sinmgapore not even being a democracy (and here I don't mean Western civilization as culture is better than any others, no way). Economically, yes, culturally, no. The West as a civilization or culture is Europe, USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. This doesn't mean that the areas above are better than any other civilization as such, however, coincidence or not, it's the Western civilization where such things important to me as freedom of speech, democracy, lack of corruption and treatment of minorities are generally better than elsewhere, and that's why Israel has some traits which remind me of a Western civilization and democratic ideals but lacks behind them. And the West is not faultless and we still need to learn from other civilizations and not see them as enemies automatically.
NBA
@Libyan warrior
Now it’s your turn :)
Terrorists = bad guys
Foreign troops invading a country = bad guys
Invaded country defending itself by honourable means against military targets = good guys
I’m glad you think that it is honourable to serve in the military, actually so do I and though I love all men/women in the military I have a special soft spot for marines – it’s crazy I know but hey I’m a red blooded woman and those marines are ‘hot’ . Now my dream is to go and watch them train at boot camp loooool …. Probably I should not be saying this in public ( hmm I’m off topic.. how did I get to this ;) ) .
I agree there is always a hidden agenda , which is what Craig thinks as well but from another angle , right Craig ?
You know LW , I’m glad you pointed out that Islam is not a race, it is simply a religion and has adherents of all colours and nationalities, the fact that the majority of Muslims are non-European looking and the first Muslims were Arabs does unfortunately bring up these race issues.
I’d like to correct you on a little misunderstanding if permitted, and if I’m wrong maybe a European would clarify it for me as well. Please don’t necessarily assume that Europeans are Christians, I’ve lived for a while in their countries and they always thought about themselves as simply the West , not the Christian West. It is only when they are filling out some application forms in which they need to put religion that they write down Christian – safer than writing atheist ;) .
I’m going to ask you again to stop being personal in your comments to the other readers – it’s being courteous, even if you think someone has been disrespectful to you, don’t answer back in the same way. Don’t give them that satisfaction, keep yourself above pettiness and people will remember you with respect. These rules should be applied on whatever blog you comment LW not just on mine. It keeps the conversation clean and on topic. Don’t ever make the excuse to say that others are being rude as well. It does not matter let them be. You’re Libyan no ? make me proud and behave well . warrihum inu inta al’a7san !
Western invasion into Arab and Muslim lands is not because they are Christian; it is because they are Western it is driven by the politics of economy and world power and not by the wish to evangelise. Nations and states will continue to fight until they reach a balance – ah it shows that I’m a fan of the Realist school of thought.
I generally agree that Arab-Arab fighting and Muslim –Muslim fighting is a ‘family dispute’ and should not involve foreign troops aka from the West.
Arab Muslim conquerors have a good name in North Africa, and the descendants of Arabs , Berbers and other ethnicities make a homogenous mix at least in Libya I dare say, so I tend to agree with LW on this one that we are all one family. Except when you start going off on your rant that ‘we Berbers are the best and the Arabs are invaders thing’ – you gotta make up your mind LW what do you want to be ;) !
In my opinion Berbers think of themselves as Arabs – or the concept of Arabs as it is now and generally we have a common policy . Anyway in the age of nation states we are all Libyans, or Algerians, or Moroccans or Tunisians or Mauritanian , we are all Africans as well !
We are not anti-west my friend, but we are anti – whoever wants to take our lives and lands and property and heritage. Don’t give anyone the joy of labeling and cornering you ever!
IRAN DOES NOT EXISTS its really eastern Iraq as far as I am concerned.
Come on you know that’s not true. Iran is the Persian land and Persians go a long way back in history , they are even mentioned in the Qur’an . But yes Iran was a part of the Muslim greater state ( or empire as some would say ), and as such I would tend to agree that a war with Iraq is internal fighting in the ME and should not involve other parties.
our faith teaches us that we are all one family whatever our ancestry is [sic]
In this regard I would like to copy paste the saying on the heading of my blog:
" No Arab has superiority over a non-Arab, and no non-Arab has superiority over an Arab. No white person has superiority over a black person, and no black person has superiority over a white person. No man has superiority over a woman, and no woman has superiority over a man. The criteria for acceptance in the sight of God are righteousness and honest living."
You guys have invaded all our countries [ to the rest of the quote ]
Yes LW in general the Europeans have colonized our lands and a large part of the Muslim world. While the US does have military bases in many countries including Arab and Muslim ones. Please don’t label them the Christian West – see my explanation above – but simply the West. And I do agree that the foreign policy or many Western powers converged in keeping the ME and NA in a way that would suit their purposes and national interest . Actually I would not blame them because they are doing what is for their best self interest, the world is tough LW , not Just. If it were Just we would be in Heaven. You are still young and idealistic, and will learn soon enough that to be respected you have to know how to play the international game and have the economic power to back up your military power. Only then could you repel an aggressor and impose your will as a sovereign nation state. Of course to have that you must have the necessary civil and political infrastructure in place. Namely some type of democracy and accountability. People will then stop messing with your country - and more important you must not mess up with theirs :)
Of course there is nothing wrong with being a pan-Arabist – if I say so lol .
we muslims have morals and civilized rules to abide by unlike your people
Yes LW and for this reason you must abide by these rules and be civil always.
‘Illegitimi non carborundum’
Disclaimer this is not an offense against anyone , but just an exhortation to LW to strive and be the best so that no one has the upper hand !
LOL – Libyan Warrior it’s true that no Arab went to the moon , but there was at least two Arab cosmonauts, the Syrian Mohamed Faris who flew with the Russian crew in 1985 while the Saudi Salman al-Saud flew on board the ( US) Discovery in 1985.
LW – attacking coalition troops aka occupation forces is the right of Iraqis if they want to , but it is not the God given right of Arabs and Muslims , not in the 21st century and not in the era of nation –states and this overwhelming weakness. It would be their right if they have co-signed mutual defense covenants like NATO countries. Then they could use this excuse and attack militarily. This is similar to the US helping the Kuwaitis as an ally – so they came and liberated them from Iraqi occupation.
Though I tend to agree that people do snap in extreme circumstances and the Iraqis (and Palestinians) have been in extreme circumstances for years . But that means that also foreign troops do snap as well including the IDF – in Israel and the occupied holy land.
So you’re gonna marry an ‘Arab’ – lol congratulations , they’re hot chicks.
wow u actually do those things.lol
Yep :p I’ve been in situations where this had to be done . Guess Libyan guys don’t think a ‘ladder climbing’ , ‘fire extinguisher’ grabbing woman is their cup of tea. But hey me has given up on them ;) .
LW you are mixing up the Aryans and the Vikings etc… but I see that NBA has done something about it – can I ask you to not make pre- judgments on others? It’s embarrassing when you have to retrace your steps !
their should be a poster of you in every class room in Libya .
What are you trying to do LW – do you want to scare the kids , or get me in trouble lol ?
LW there are bad people everywhere and from all faiths, murderers , pedophiles etc… these are not characteristics of one nation/ culture/ ethnicity and religion. We have seen Christian monks who are pedophiles but we have also seen Muslim pedophiles as well , no one is exempt from wrongdoing. Morality is not confined to one place or another, don’t be such an idealist… pimps, whores etc… are available everywhere.
we are two totally different races
LW can you be serious for once- now you want to throw all Arabs out again ;) .
NBA :) Please stop using racist derogatory remarks towards me
LW , you have been quite racist yourself and I think NBA has been one of the top polite people on this blog.... :)
LW – if you think I’m a role model then be my disciple ( ha ha ha ) and copy me ! and if you want more comments on your blog, put the same information in a reasonable manner and you will see how even those you think are enemies will be drawn to you .
Mitchell :)
Thanks again for the google link , can you please weigh in a little bit more with your thoughts ?
I’d like to correct you on a little misunderstanding if permitted, and if I’m wrong maybe a European would clarify it for me as well. Please don’t necessarily assume that Europeans are Christians, I’ve lived for a while in their countries and they always thought about themselves as simply the West , not the Christian West. It is only when they are filling out some application forms in which they need to put religion that they write down Christian – safer than writing atheist ;).
Highlander's right, as very often when it's about facts, not opinions :-). A Muslim, whether born one or converted, can surely be as European as a Jew, Atheist or Christian. And as it has been posted here before, not all Arabs are Muslims. However, I presume the influence of Christianity on Western civilization and the influence of Islam on Arab culture are both so strong that even non-Christian Europeans and Christian Arabs are not exempt from them.
Religion is actually very seldom asked here. I think the latest times I've had to write mine are a couple of visa forms to Muslim countries. And I've heard about a case where somebody was denied a visa when he wrote Atheist as his religion in a visa application for a certain Muslim country. Asking religion in these forms is IMHO stupid especially when nobody has to give any proof on that anyway or doesn't have to repeat his creed by heart to the visa clerk (and who remembers any of the Christian creeds by heart anyway).
Nothing really interesting in this feeble comment of mine this time (either), just wanted to move the thread one step closer to the magical one hundred comments. Highlander, is this the record ever? You wanted discussion but I guess maybe not this much...
Top polite NBA (Highlander, that was funny, as I know a couple of people who wouldn't associate me with that word LOL)
Lol. okay Highlander, i am sure if those marines come to libya they will not think twice about raping u infront of your family.
You tell us more than we want to know about what's going on in your own head, when you say things like this, Libyan Warrior. I pity any woman who ever finds herself at your "mercy". I don't have any doubts about what you would do.
BTW, that's the third or fourth time I've seen you talking about troops raping women in front of their families. That seems to be what you think war is all about, no? So when you say you want to wage war on the west (which you say a lot) you really mean that you want to rape western women and humiliate the men, right?
See? You're the guy with the greasy mustache, who ties the damsels in distress to the train tracks. Again.
And one more thing! :P
Have you noticed it's only the women who you REPEATEDLY abuse, who persist in giving you second chances, and forgiving your past abusive behavior?
That's because women don't understand men very well, and they think you can be re-habilitated. And of course, you reward them by turning on them AGAIN 5 minutes later. Don't you?
Mitchell :) Thanks again for the google link , can you please weigh in a little bit more with your thoughts ?
Highlander, I am fundamentally a conspiracy theorist when it comes to the war, although I have thoughts about the visible world of culture, politics and economics like everyone else. Furthermore, it's a theory that no-one else ever believes. :-) Since you asked, I will post a little about what I think, but I'll wait for conversation to calm down first.
Great words, Craig. LW is trying to destroy the atmosphere here (which of course is what he always planned to do) but we shouldn't let trolls like him rule over sense. That's why I haven't cared about his personal insults for a long long time. What annoys me truly, however, is that, unlike you, Craig, for example, he doesn't use the forum to criticize Highlander and the others but to insult them in a way where the insult is the aim. Critical debate and deliberate chains of insults are very different ways of communicating. I can't myself imagine anything worse to frequently hint about in front of a woman than raping her as LW is doing in this thread. That's simply utterly disgusting and very far from debating here like the rest are doing.
Highlander, in my honest and humble opinion, you shouldn't try to talk sense to LW anymore. He insults you, apologizes and has another set of insults all in three comments and then starts it over again. Talking sense to him is like the women we have here in the evil infidel West who think they can cure their alcoholic husbands.
Off topic, Libyan men are stupid if they don't appreciate ladder climbing girls trying to save their cats LOL. Save yourself from there to another civilization ;-).
NBA
Really, Arabs never fail to shock me. If you want to understand why the Arab world is on the bottom of the world in every field you have only to read this speech. We poor muslims are victims of a international zionist-imperialist-crusader conspiration, we are in this ugly situation because of them and not because of us, we act corretly with all and the others disrespect us... Please, open your eyes and your mind to the truth, start to self-criticize yourself for your lacks and for your situations. Until you 'll continue wrongly to blame on others your lacks who depend on you, you'll never resolve them.
NBA, you understand yourself you are stuck in some contradiction, don't you? You don't find Western civilization better than any else and in the same time you say Israel doesn't belong to it because it isn't perfect! Some years ago my thoughts were similar to yours. Now I feel slight nostalgia for that time when I was a better person.
Highlander, I agree with you that the West, esp. Europe, isn't Christian anymore; I like the term "post-Christian". I wish Muslim societies to become post-Muslim as well. I think that although they are subjected to heavy pro-Islam, anti-apostasy pressure, the tendency is here. Remember what A. Sullivan said during the cartoon riots: "A self-confident religion shouldn't be so touchy." The Egyptian ferry disaster happened at the same time and what struck me was how the crew members (led by the captain) abandoned the passengers in order to save their own asses. Is this the behaviour of pious believers? Of course there are heroic atheists as well as believers who break down in a critical situation, but believers tend to behave much better, I admit. So if a whole crew deserts a drowning ship like rats, they definitely cherish their lives too much! They don't believe in an afterlife where sacrifice is rewarded.
So I guess that in today's Islamic societies many people don't truly believe anymore but aren't allowed to say this publicly and don't feel comfortable to admit it even to themselves. This of course leads to a lot of hysteria and troubles for everybody.
Highlander, I'm sure, you'll say that all these are family matters and we must stay away from them. Well, we mustn't. First, Earth has become so small that wherever a "family dispute" goes on, blows fall on many other people as well. Second, if during a "family feud" you happen to be on the loser's side, will you really object if somebody intervenes and saves you? During the Bosnian war some people said, "it's a family dispute, nobody must intervene" etc. What they really meant was, "Serbs must be let to exterminate Bosnian Muslims because I don't want a Muslim state in Europe."
NBA, you understand yourself you are stuck in some contradiction, don't you? You don't find Western civilization better than any else and in the same time you say Israel doesn't belong to it because it isn't perfect! Some years ago my thoughts were similar to yours. Now I feel slight nostalgia for that time when I was a better person.
No, I don't see myself in contradiction here (let me tell you however that I'm sure in contradiction elsewhere). I haven't said Western civilization is perfect but my point was that although Israel treats its citizens better than any other ME countries, they way Israel treats its own non-Jewish citizens would be unacceptable in the West where all citizens are institutionally equal despite the religion or lack of it. For example, could you imagine any European country where people of the majority religion are forced to do the military service and the others are exempt from it because they are seen as a security risk (right or wrong) and when later in the life many benefits and advantages are tied to having done the military service or not? That was the human rights part of being Western. Another example is that there are lots of people who don't think the USA is perfect but nobody can deny it's a Western country. So, no automatic link between being perfect and being Western. Thank God.
The other thing is of course that I don't see Israel as a culturally Western country. It has some Western traits the way Turkey does but it's not Western. And here, being Western or not is not a ranking of being good or bad. Cultures are civilizations as such are equal whether they're Western/Christian, Islamic, Hindu, Confucian etc. (I start sounding like Samuel P. Huntington now).
Summa summarum, I don't say Western civilization is better than any other. In some things, yes, like in what I wrote about certain core values like tolerance, freedom and human rights but in other things we in my opinion behind other ways of life - respect for old people, close family ties etc.
NBA
I must say i agree with NBA ,srael is not a "western" country
Israel is a western country. I have to disagree with NBA (and you) on this.
in my opinion when people say western u atomaticly think European.
As they should. The term comes from the location of Western Europe on a map of the known world during the middle ages. It was at the extreme western edge. It no longer refers to geographical location, though, it's now a cultural term. By the way, NBA, I disagree with you lumping "western" in with "Christian" - I don't believe religion has anything to do with western culture, though it was certainly an influencing factor in the development of that culture in the distant past. For example, the Phillipines islands are as devoutly Catholic as any country on the planet, but I would not call Filipinos "western" - they are as much a part of the culture of southeast asia as any other country in the region.
But then what would u consider Japan, surley it has many so called "western characteristics"
Yes. Japan is clearly a "western" country. Even though it's not Christian. In my opinion, though I'm sure NBA will disagree, because the Japanese fall short of western standards even more than Israelis do :)
South Korea and Taiwan are also arguably "western" also, in that they have more in common with the west than with their neighbors.
but take a look at Russia, is russia considered a part of the west?
Not traditionally, no. Eastern Europe is part of the east. They were at war with the west (Cold War) until recently. Eastern Europe is (slowly) adopting western culture. It's not clear (to me) whether it's going to well and truly take hold or not, though.
I reposted this topic because the html was broken and was having trouble accessing , you all probably did too ?
By the way, NBA, I disagree with you lumping "western" in with "Christian" - I don't believe religion has anything to do with western culture, though it was certainly an influencing factor in the development of that culture in the distant past. For example, the Phillipines islands are as devoutly Catholic as any country on the planet, but I would not call Filipinos "western" - they are as much a part of the culture of southeast asia as any other country in the region.
Well, first of all, what is East and what is West (except for when we discuss strictly geographical definitions) is a matter of opinion with nobody entitled to the absolute truth. No, Craig, my meaning hasn't been equating Western with Christian. You're completely right with the Philippines. Furthermore, I don't regard South America or Africa as parts of the West despite their being mostly Christian, the former almost exclusively so. Once again, luckily so, because the world would be a much duller place if there was less diversity here which doesn't mean I wouldn't like other cultures to adopt those Western values which are the dearest to me even at the risk of losing something of their own in the meanwhile.
Taiwan, South Korea and the like do have some common features with Western countries as what comes to economy. On the other hand, so do Gulf countries if we equate Western with malls and skyscrapers. However, digging deeper into the culture, Taiwan is closer to China than Iceland and South Korea closer to North Korea than Canada. Just like East Germany was part of the political non-West during the Cold War, yet that doesn't change the deeper culture.
Ah and what does all of this have to do with Highlander's original headline anymore LOL.
NBA
OK NBA your turn now so don’t run away : ) I wish you would get a blogger profile and some info we could click on – how are the Arab girls going to contact you if they don’t know your age, industry, email or favourite dish ?
Craig and LW want to marry an Arab – but at least we know how to get in touch with them ;)
Thanks for being my frequent reader from Finland , I like seeing that little flag on the sidebar- but I never thought my blog could be addictive …wow
Thanks for reminding us also about the two Finnish businessmen , I recall their tragedy as I used to still follow more closely the war in Iraq back in 2004 .
I hate the situation of intra-killing in Darfur and the occupation of the Western Sahara and it should not be acceptable. North African countries have been trying to come to a solution for years and I still have hope. People in our countries are not ignorant about these issues. However, some tend to view them internal issues which harks back to a time when all this was one geographical land (not so long ago one would say), and only in the last decades Arabs have become used to the reality of the nation- state with the status quo as divided by imperialist powers along lines which cut across tribal lands and ancestral villages. Sometimes it becomes hard to know where your loyalty lies ….to your tribe across the border, or to the country of which you are a passport holder. On the other hand the blatant presence of non-Arab troops/power is easier to distinguish and ‘drum up’ as you say. Though it does sound hypocritical I daresay.
As for US foreign policy in my opinion it is very clear- make the country and American assets inside and outside more secure, provide the best business deals, and ensure the constant dominion on all fronts by all available means. That’s the aim of any government in the world.
With regards to racism in Europe it depends who the person on the giving or receiving end of racism is. So while I agree with you that Europe respects ‘political dissent, minority languages, ethnic groups and religions’, some type of racism does surface at times but polite people do not show it. So it can be very subtle and there are of course cases of overt racism. But as I said there are exceptions to any rule. Though, both racism and xenophobia have been on the rise lately.
here if two fighting groups share the same religion ( however they interpret it), they become a family. By the same logic, although not referring to religion but to national borders, whatever happens in Israel/Palestine should not belong to anyone else [..] Russia should have free hand in Chechnya […] and the Bosnian civil war was just a family feud
Well NBA if we do apply this then, no one should interfere in the Palestinian Israeli ongoing feud, no money, no weapons , no assistance , no intelligence and no support or non-support to both parties. Only thing permissible is humanitarian assistance of medicine – food –shelter after they devastate each other and then the whole world must accept the result of who won and who lost. Russia should have free hand in Chechnya and vice versa – again same conditions apply and winner takes all.
Bosnia , China etc… same . I know it’s sounds cruel as each victim nation is up against a Goliath. But I cannot apply a double standard in my thinking… and expect special treatment of non interference in Israel-Palestine while at the same time clamour to help stop genocide in other countries because I’ll be called a hypocrite then.
With regards to Bosnians, I lived among them for a period of time, and I can vouch for their strong Muslim feeling. The people are ethnically European looking but they also follow the precepts of Islam, and when I was there they spoke exactly the same language as Serbs. You would not differentiate them by the way. The mosques were just as beautiful as in any Arab Muslim country. The Bosnians tradition and heritage had a lot in common with Turkey. A Saudi backed mosque is alien even to me NBA.
Happy to hear that you opposed the war :).
There is something which Arab Muslim must make clear to the world , which is that Saudi Arabia is not the spokesperson on Islam related issues, no one has appointed them our PR face, and anything they utter should immediately be the ‘authority’, being the birthplace of Islam does not confer special status. Special status is granted only to someone who has spent his/her life studying theology and the Qu’ran and that could be someone in Jamaica for all we know. The only other prerequisite is excellency in Arabi , that is essential to read the Qur’an , the translation is but a shadow ….
I like the analogy you brought about schoolchildren in KSA and Finland – that is a good illustration… and the OBL quote , I can’t believe there are people who think this way.
in the West anti-globalization has been hijacked by leftists and anarchists who think McDonald’s, Shell and Nestle are the real Axis of Evil ;)
LOL at times I think like that too, but that’s just my conspiracy theory button kicking in .
my values should dominate all over the world but no foreign values should dominate over mine
This NBA is a gem of a sentence - I want to frame it - unfortunately many people are caught thinking this way and don’t eve realize or wish to hear an alternative view, point or value. At least you are aware of it and can deal with it accordingly.
The dishdasha ( male robe) is worn voluntarily , and the abaya too ( for females) unless your travel was in Saudi Arabia , Afghanistan ( pre- ‘liberation’) or Iran.
So now I’m curious where you’ve been ;), and why do you think you could ever get into trouble lol .
Twosret :
Where are you we need your input ?
Oh and thanks to all those who joined later and are adding their input. I'm just trying to cath up because yesterday I could not access blogger.
Maya next reply is for you.
LW I see that you have deleteda lot of your comments...
The West is clearly as much influenced by the secular ideas of the past few centuries as by Christian ones. The modern West is clearly not Christian in the way that the Islamic East is...well...Islamic.
In the Muslim world, Islam permeates the entire social and political culture in a way completely unknown in the West where religion is a much more private affair.
Highlander,
You don't have to respond to every thread, you know. You can always take a break and sit it out or consolidate your thoughts in a future post after things have quieted down on this thread. The owners of many blogs do exactly that all the time. :-D
You're right Tommy and I do respond in a future post sometimes, but I have so many ideas and posts pending that I'm thinking if i don't reply here on this one I'll never get to do it anymore :) ... But I am considering making posts of some of the larger issues we spoke about here .
Highlander, I try to be relatively brief now because I think you have more intelligent things to do than replying to all my comments while at the moment I'm not busy at work, so I've got the time ;).
I wish you would get a blogger profile and some info we could click on – how are the Arab girls going to contact you if they don’t know your age, industry, email or favourite dish?
Hahahaha, if that's what I'd get from opening a blogger account I seriously have to consider doing it LOL. Craig and LW, you get lots of marriage proposals LOL? And, Highlander, you could also update these things about you to your profile LOL.
On the other hand the blatant presence of non-Arab troops/power is easier to distinguish and ‘drum up’ as you say.
Exactly and that's why Arab and African countries should do more for Darfur being more part of the family than complete strangers. Objectively, it's a far worse humantarian catastrophe than Palestine and therefore ignorance of the situation is disgusting and politically motivated.
So while I agree with you that Europe respects ‘political dissent, minority languages, ethnic groups and religions’, some type of racism does surface at times but polite people do not show it.
Yes, definitely and unfortunately and perhaps it's even on the increase. Never been a resident in any Arab country but I doubt Arab visitors, for example, in Europe are treated as well as I've been treated in the Arab world. That's, however, a different issue from the institutionalized intolerance of political dissent, human rights and religious minorities in the Arab world. Rednecks are everywhere but governments shouldn't support them :).
Well NBA if we do apply this then, no one should interfere in the Palestinian Israeli ongoing feud, no money, no weapons , no assistance , no intelligence and no support or non-support to both parties.
Sorry, I start now sounding like a politician complaing he's been quoted out of context. Of course I support international interventions in order to prevent humanitarian catastrophes. My meaning was to tell LW that if what happened in the Arab world is 'internal', from another perspective civil wars are intentional as well. The sad thing is of course that interventions are politically motivated - why Iraq, not Darfur, why Kosovo, not Ruanda, why the West is disgustingly quiet about Chechnya etc. In fact, on the personal level, I think I've opposed most of these politically motivated invasions as long as I can remember, whether in the ME or Balkans.
There is something which Arab Muslim must make clear to the world , which is that Saudi Arabia is not the spokesperson on Islam related issues, no one has appointed them our PR face, and anything they utter should immediately be the ‘authority’, being the birthplace of Islam does not confer special status.
Here I agree 100% with the opinion of you and all the other Arabs, bloggers or not, who see this thing as clearly. However, my problem with the issue is that I see hypocritical Arab/Muslim governments attacking the occupation of Jerusalem and complete silence on the fact that the two holiest places of Islam are occupied by a despotic and hypocritical regime far worse that Israel and that the official Arab/Muslim world allots the Saudi King the title of the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques. That's appointing the Saudi royals as an Arab/Islamic PR face. Arabs and Muslims definitely deserve better.
I just checked the Arab League website but it was not available in English. However, if you check the OIC site (www.oic-oci.org) you see some double standards there. Quote:
The Organization was established in Rabat, Kingdom of Morocco, on 12 Rajab 1389H (25 September 1969) when the First meeting of the leaders of the Islamic world was held in this city in the wake of the criminal arson perpetrated on 21 August 1969 by Zionist elements against Al-Aqsa Mosque, in occupied Jerusalem. It was indeed in order to defend the honour, dignity and faith of the Muslims, to face this bitter challenge launched in the holy city of Al-Quds so dear to them and against the Mosque of Al-Aqsa, the first Qibla and third holiest Shrine of Islam, that the leaders of the Muslim world, at their Summit in Rabat, seized that event - which brought about unanimous worldwide condemnation and reprobation - to think together of their common cause and muster the force required to overcome their differences, unite and lay the foundations of this large grouping of States, that is, the Organization of the Islamic Conference which they entrusted, in absolute priority, with liberating Jerusalem and Al-Aqsa from Zionist occupation.
Six months after that historical meeting, i.e. in Muharram 1390H (March 1970), the First Islamic Conference of Ministers of Foreign Affairs held in Jeddah set up a permanent General Secretariat, to ensure a liaison among Member States and charged it to coordinate their action. The Conference appointed its Secretary General and chose Jeddah as the Headquarters of the Organization, pending the liberation of Jerusalem, which would be the permanent Headquarters.
Hmm. Having Jeddah as the seat of the organization is a way of allowing the Saudi regime to speak for the one billion Muslims. Right or wrong, Americans exclude Cuba from their organization of cooperation and Europeans do the same to their worst family member, Belarus. I couldn't imagine OAS being located in Havana or the Council of Europe in Minsk. Arabs and Muslims should follow the example.
OK, now I've been commenting too much in this thread and that's not what my employer pays my salary for LOL. Will be back to your blog but I hope next re: cats or Arabian dishes or something more, erm, light than saving the world.
Would love to hear more about you in Bosnia as well!
Ah and this was what I promised to be relatively brief... HUH.
NBA
Hi Maya :)
Sometimes I disagree and get shocked from your statements, but then they always make me think hard and dig deeper in my head :) . I always appreciate the facts that they are written in all sincerity, you have an open face and no hidden agenda. I love that and respect you a lot and believe we would make great friends and hold lively conversations. I love the scientific dissection approach you take on topics, as it appeals to the amateur scientist lurking somewhere in me :).
As of now I have a feeling that the alleged Haditha massacres will NOT be a turning point like My Lai, because killing Zarqawi has upstaged that . That was a great PR move – although the bastard did deserve to die for the atrocities he committed.
I always wonder when Muslims complain of anti-Muslim “racism”
You are right Maya , ‘there can be no racism against Muslim’ but there can be discrimination, that is the correct word I should have used in my translation, the only twist is that this discrimination is only demonstrated against the stereotypical Muslim and not a European looking one and that’s how it merges with the racism bit.
You are right that Arabs are like you guys and their culture does not call for killing anyone , they just want to eat, procreate, have fun and generally live well in a place which guarantees a modicum of self respect , pride and honour. That quote from Big Pharaoh is exaggerated; it is not the wish of Arabs to fly planes into buildings even though some 19 out of over 250 millions did that.
Pressurizing Mubarak or anyone else will not change a thing, he will still be seen as a puppet and his people will still be suspicious and continue living the way they want. We have to work at the grass root level, on people's mentalities..
If the Iraq war became a failure it will be entirely because its invasion has disintegrated the society and allowed terrorists from all over the world to regroup there, bringing a civil war and creating chaos in an unstable region.
I keep wondering why Highlander regularly gives long citations from authors whose writing and thinking are so inferior to her own
Thank you for the compliment Maya , I put up these citations to stimulate debate , as these are the things that a non- Arabic speaker cannot read and this is where you need to go to find the truth about them and not to people who already echo your opinions. Sometimes one sentence , one expression can be a discovery. Of course I assume you know no Arabic , but perhaps you do ;) .
I’m with you that racism and xenophobia ‘are inherent to human nature’, getting rid of these feelings is possible if we are totally open about the other, though yes we are all guilty of xenophobia and sometimes it is justified .
Globalization is inevitable and brings about the current global war.But it is still legitimate to insist on diversity and sovereignty of cultures
Up to here I was in agreement …..
But if we followed your earlier thought process in defining cultures, races, ethnicity then your next statement would be inaccurate I’m afraid, let’s view and I’ll explain why .
if an honest Arab is against globalization, he will disapprove both the Westernization ( McDonaldization ) of any Arab country and the Islamization of Europe. If he supports globalization, he is likely to support al-Qaida but at the same time he’ll hold no hard feelings against American in Iraq (he may fight them but will respect their right to fight for their own cause) .
You realize that there is a generalization here don’t you? And consequently an illogical conclusion … If an ‘honest Arab’ supports globalization it does not mean he supports al Qaida, the latter should not be a direct extrapolation of the former. Al-Qaida is a pan-Islamist ( not Islamic) institution with some type of politico –criminal agenda which is exploiting impressionable minds. Al- Qaida ‘s birth in my opinion was aided by the West (just like Hamas was Israel’s baby ). So an ‘honest Arab’ would view Al-qaida with great suspicion as a stooge of the West or as a group that wants to ruin the Arab’s way of life. A ‘dishonest Arab’ would consider the usefulness of Al-Qaida in his/her struggle against real or imaginary injustices of which he/she is the victim , with the adage that ‘your enemy is my friend’.
An honest Arab would ‘respect their [ the West ? the US ? ] right to fight for their own cause’, but he/she must be granted the same respect. Fighting in Iraq is not included in this criteria immediately after it has been established that there were no WMD, the ‘own cause ‘ there stopped being legitimate when it changed into another cause. However, if we take Tommy’s statement into account that the War on Iraq was premeditated for the greater scheme of democratizing the Middle East then that is not ‘their own cause ‘ even more. That is a double standard.
invasion is when you go to another place and subdue the locals
Germany was therefore an invader in WWII , following this logic would you agree that Israel is an invader too ? Notice I brought up 2 examples of military and not cultural invasion.
I can see the Denmark cartoon issue is still affecting you Maya. I can’t see that Arabs have invaded Denmark as there were no Arab troops massing on it’s borders. However, if you mean a cultural invasion then one could say that the Arab immigrants there have become Danes and should have integrated, their presence – and I don’t know the demographics there – if significant does change the make up of the Danish society but does not necessarily mean the Danish culture should be eradicated only that the Arabs culture there should be taken into account, of course I would expect in honesty the same if a great number of Danes immigrated to an Arab country enough to alter the demography. That is certainly not an invasion. It is the same for Muslim invaders I have not seen Muslim armies gathering at the gates of Europe or Denmark.
We’ve discussed the cartoon issue before and concluded that it was a sorry issue with both sides having committed an error. On this note I think NBA’s reply illustrates it the best whereby the West needs to learn more about Islam, but the Muslims also needed ‘to learn more about secularism in the west’.
If by invasion you mean immigrants of North African Arab descent in Europe , then the ones causing trouble are 3rd generation and they have become citizens of that country and they are protesting the poverty and discrimination they face in that country, this is not an invasion, their parents were welcomed when their skills were needed but they are just an eyesore, for the rising xenophobia and racism in some countries.
I also don’t want non- Western values imposed on the West and in the same time I want Western values imposed everywhere, but what is so wrong with this view after we admit it ?
By the above statement the wish of millions of peoples who may not want the same thing is negated :)
You’re correct about me being stuck in the middle between the west and east, because I love them both and they inseparable in my heart, mind and soul, it does not have to be either or so I won’t jump sides Maya, I believe there is a third way which would combine what is best and good in the two sides , that way we achieve justice and the real purpose of globalization. We don’t have to kill a whole culture for that . I think if this is achieved that would herald eternal peace and probably the end of the world .
Bin ladin’s people are not one of the two sides in my book .I have accepted the values of the West which NBA encapsulated , ‘democracy, freedom etc..’ and I’ m sure they are applicable in my own environment .
LOL @ handsome Libyan bachelor = > remember I’m torn between the east and the west to heal that I’m gonna take NBA's advice and marry a western guy what do you think ?
Hi Tommy :)
I don't think you are a neocon as LW suggested , but even if you are that's fine it adds spice to the discussion . So keep coming ..
Like you I did read the reports about tracking Zarqawi then I lost interest because Iraq news have become monotonous I'm ashamed to say and depress me, just like Palestine. The same thing day in day out, bloodshed. There is so much exploded bodies I could take.
Thanks for the oped on the WoT . I actually collect them ( for a future book perhaps :) ).
Also Tommy nothing wrong in disagreeing right ? makes the discussion less boring . That's why I love blogging and blogs I meet such interesting folks .
has the United States ever asked for the sympathy of the Muslim worl?
Point taken . Thanks
I know that efforts are focused at reducing the violence in order to reduce the military presence, but that's too late in my opinion and the violence begun as a result of the military presence in the first place.
Alank
I know you don’t like these topics but it is so nice that you stopped by and took part.
I remember so well all the charities going in overdrive for the Tsunami effort in the UK it was awesome I was there at that time ( LW please get your facts right !) . While I missed the London bombings by a couple of days and they were right across my little flat. I remember I went to King’s Cross to say a prayer for the dead and saw all those memorials. It was so sad and that was a disgusting act!
Thank you for your condolences.
Suliman
Can you elaborate more please ?
Ontripoli
Yes you have a great blog , I have a question about a restaurant but I'll leave it on your blog.
Programmer _Craig if you come to Libya I’ll invite you to one of these spots and you will have the best Tuna sandwich you ever tasted. Libyans love their tuna :)
Matoko
Welcome to the blog :) the anology of homsapiens vs homodemonicus is excellent.
One thing I beg to differ: Sistani = demon too the guy is a genius but hypocrite believe me …did you see his website
LW was right this time .
I have more translations soon . Hope you will enjoy them.
LW I was gonna make some more replies but you have deleted everything. However. I did not enjoy the mental image you conjured of me being raped by marines. I actually had this fear in 1986 after the airstrike but then I realized that if I always carried a knife with me & there ever was an invasion by anyone in Libya and I had no choice I could slit my own wrists.
The marines are supposed to have a code of honour I don't expect them to go raping women , but there is no excluding bad people everywhere even among my own.
Inshallah all women in the world will be safe from this atrocity.
Mitchell :) Thanks I'm still waiting for your theory
Desperation
Yes looked ourselves in the mirror is the best remedy .
NBA lol post your info and see if you get any offers ;)
Hi NBA,
Furthermore, I don't regard South America or Africa as parts of the West despite their being mostly Christian, the former almost exclusively so.
Latin America is certainly part of "the west" NBA. And it always has been, since Europeans first colonized the Americas. There are virtually no traces of the pre-existing Indian civilizations, so how could Latin America be anything but part of the west? They have many problems with poverty and corruption, unstable governments, etc... but they are as "western" as many countries in Western Europe are.
I agree with you about Africa. I doubt Africa will ever be "western" - nor would I want it to be. I look forward to the day when an advanced (sub-saharan) African culture emerges. Hopefully, that day will come... if Africa doesn't become arabicized.
Taiwan, South Korea and the like do have some common features with Western countries as what comes to economy.
Ok, this is something I know a few things about first hand, so I'm going to dispute you! It's a lot more than economic similarities. I've been to South Korea a few times, and it's lot more like the US than France (for instance) is! My rule of thumb is that if I feel "at home" somehwere, it's a western country. If I feel like a confused stranger, it's not. I love Filipinos dearly, they are probably my favorite people in the world, but it's literally a different world. Taiwan does not have as much in common with mainland China as you seem to think. Taiwanese speak Mandarin exclusively, whereas most mainland Chinese speak Cantonese, even though Mandarin is the "official" language. The Taiwanese are the descendants of the elite of Chinese society, who were driven out by the Communists at the end of WWII. They really look down on the "peasants" from the mainland. But you know what? All that said, I'd guess that China itslef is going to be a "western" country sooner or later. A lot of the concepts that we in the west are so proud of were invented thousands of years ago, in China. Civil service, for instance. And Capitalism :D
I might even be willing to bet that mainland China will be "western" before Taiwan is. The Taiwanese are very elitist and authoritarian. Hmmm... major sidetrack there! Well, anyway... I was married for 10 years to a woman who grew up in mainland China, and I got to know hundreds of Chinese people pretty well - as well as I've ever known anyone, really - and there is nothing about Chinese culture that is incompatibile with American culture. They fit right in here. I met my ex-wife at a Taiwanese computer company, by the way. I was the token white guy :D
On the other hand, so do Gulf countries if we equate Western with malls and skyscrapers.
Yeah, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about culture. At least, that's what I'm talking about.
Ah and what does all of this have to do with Highlander's original headline anymore LOL.
Well, it actually is related, if one views the war on terror as an extension of a culture clash. Which I do. I really do believe that the islamists intend to destroy and/or subjugate the west, if they can. Furthermore, so does the govbernment of Iran. They even have a plan. Ahmadinejad has stated a policy that defeating "the anglo-saxons" (Britain & the US mianly, but also Canada & Austrailia) will result in the death of western civilization. And he may be right. But that's going to be a lot easier said than done, I suspect. Anyway, his stated plan is to take down Britain first, to isolate the US and leave it without allies. Interesting (but crazy) ideas. That plan would probably work, if anyone could actually pull it off. But I don't believe they could. Not Islamists, at least.
NBA,
Hahahaha, if that's what I'd get from opening a blogger account I seriously have to consider doing it LOL. Craig and LW, you get lots of marriage proposals LOL?
Not marriage proposals, no, but I've become friends with several Arab women through blogs! And you are a much nicer guy than I am! Give it a shot :)
And a kind of promised I wouldn't comment in this thread anymore but... Hey Highlander, Craig and especially LW, I'm sure we can make it 200 now that we achieved the magical threshold of 100 comments here as well!
Latin America is certainly part of "the west" NBA. And it always has been, since Europeans first colonized the Americas. There are virtually no traces of the pre-existing Indian civilizations, so how could Latin America be anything but part of the west?
Well, the no traces part might apply to, let's say, Costa Rica, Uruguay or Argentina but if on the other hand you think of Paraguay, Ecaudor, Bolivia, Peru, Guatemala or Mexico, traces of pre-colonial Indian culture are still strong, even dominant.
Ahmadinejad has stated a policy that defeating "the anglo-saxons" (Britain & the US mianly, but also Canada & Austrailia) will result in the death of western civilization. And he may be right. But that's going to be a lot easier said than done, I suspect. Anyway, his stated plan is to take down Britain first, to isolate the US and leave it without allies. Interesting (but crazy) ideas.
Ahmadinejad has got a bigger mouth than arsenal and he's as much a shame for the Iranians as the Saudis for the Arabs. Well, I'm not afraid. You know, if he managed to defeat the Anglo-Saxons (which I can bet he won't), that would still leave some 40 European countries undefeated, plus if we count in Latin America (almost 20) and the Asian countries you regard as Western, we're still dozens one billion and counting Chinese included :).
And you are a much nicer guy than I am!
Highlander calls me polite and you call me like that. And I didn't start commenting everything that moves on the Internet to be a nice guy but a bad one LOL.
NBA
Hi Highlander,
Correct. There is nothing wrong in disagreeing. I wouldn't visit these Arab blogs if I had a problem with disagreement. I expect it on almost every issue.
As far as me being a neo-con: well, it is like I said to the AngryOne earlier, I'm not a neo-con but I'm definitely a conservative. I'm not a religious conservative (I'm agnostic) and I'm more liberal on a few issues (environmental issues, for instance) but I'm definitely more right-leaning as you can see by some of the blogs I read (and often concur with) regularly:
http://hotair.com/
http://ace.mu.nu/
http://www.vdare.com/
I'm still waiting for your theory
OK. Here's the big theory: Iraq was always the "senior partner" behind al Qaeda's war against the USA, and the White House knew this from the very beginning (February 1993, the first attempt to destroy the World Trade Centre), and their big fear was always the use of recipes for weaponized anthrax which the US, through the UK, provided to Iraq near the end of the war with Iran.
Like any good conspiracy theorist, I can provide long lists of obscure coincidences in support of my theory, and I have a what-really-happened reinterpretation of everything that might seem to contradict it.
I do also try to understand the larger historical matrix in which the war has occurred; but that's my theory about the secret core of the whole 15-year battle between Iraq and the USA.
Hi Mitchell , thanks for sharing the theory with me , I'm a lover of conspiracies ( don't we all secretly ).
OK so your theory does not sound far fetched at all and does give the justification for attacking Iraq ;) ....
However, I prefer my own counter theory that Saddam was a US puppet and ally and when he finally wanted to emancipate himself he got wacked :) => that's in plain talk not academic vocabulary .
Tommy thanks for the links about the blogs you frequent and agree - me will be reading to get another perspective :) Plus I've seen you on plenty of other blogs....
NBA lol I still see you chickened out of posting info ;)
he got wacked :) => that's in plain talk not academic vocabulary
We should elect Tony Soprano as President :P
NBA, it only take 5 minutes to create a blogger account, and you don't need to provide any info you don't want to! Even e-mail address is optional :)
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