Saint or Idiot ?
"Perhaps it's a bit of arrogance- a bit of self adulation that makes me think that I have the capacity to bring happiness where there is misery; hope where there is despair and laughter where there are tears.[...]Why? Why do I do that? Why is it so important for me to do everything I possibly can, even if it means going out of my way and making myself 'unhappy', to make someone else happy? And why am I so hurt when it doesn't work?" [more]
The above extract from the latest post by The Usual Suspect is the story of my life!
In the end I don't think we make ourselves 'unhappy' really , that's why she put it in quotation marks. Witnessing the happiness that we bring into other people's lives is enough of an incentive to recharge our batteries and make us start all over again no matter how tired or drained we feel.
This life is ephemereal so making connections with the wonderful souls out there will help us all in our journey to the next level.
Do you agree or am I an idiot to think this way ?
42 comments:
you forgot to mention that the humankind is not the only alive being on earth, and it is not sure that the human beings are superior, they only have the propension to abstraction and express through logical sentences (some don't :lol:)
for my concern, I think sensisiveness is in nature in general, taking care of it can make someone happy ; if human beings don't return what you have given to them, it's because this kinds are the most egoistic in nature ; and may-be that your intentions were not as good as they were supposed to be : it's a way to try to dominate and manipulate someone ;
I tend to let the people free express their own and not try to narrow their live with a charitical spirit; one needs space to breeth and react with sensitiveness
You make some good points Nomad. Personally I don't expect any return for what I give, that's why I leave people free to breath or do what they want.
Animals and plants on the other hand I've noticed always return the favour ten times and that is another sources of happiness.
But the ultimate spiritual connection is with God and it is through Him that I learn about the need to give because He is the All-Giving in more ways than one and whatever He gives is a source of extreme pleasure even if sometimes I don't think this way at first glance :)
I agree with Nomad. Usual Suspect makes a lot of sense and I can tell she is a kind person but my own take on it is if you feel like you are always giving and never getting anything back it's because you have expectations of getting something out of your efforts. Whenever I catch myself resenting the fact that somebody has not reciprocated when I reached out to them, I try to give myself a little kick in the ass mentally, and a reminder that it doesn't work that way :)
I do admire people who can consistently "do" for others, though. Whatever their motivations.
Actually TUS is lamenting the fact that she is not always successful in giving happiness no matter how hard she tried :P she is not asking for anything in return ... read her post Programmer_Craig :P!
Salam All
A Very interesting subject Highlander, and thanks to Usual suspect for brining it up.
I personally think that if you treat humans as ENDS (therefore their means as ends; their 'happiness', their career, their love, their satisfaction etc) then you are in for a huge disappointment most of the time. Rarely will ends ever be truly met, and if they ever are they are brief and volatile and suffer from the slightest personal disagreement. Happiness will only be achieved as compromises with others’ happiness. It wont feel nice. And will collapse as soon as one has the confidence to reject their submission.
Humans have ‘free will’, and therefore their destinies tend to be ‘of their own’ choosing, unless psychologically coerced. These will naturally differ from human to human which is beautiful because it means we can all flower as creative personal individuals, unique in personalities and capabilities.
But if you treat humans as MEANS for higher, more divine purposes, then the trade off between your patience and strength while they manage to hurt you makes it very much worthwhile.
This is because these virtues are not ‘reward-less’, but rather, rewarded extremely handsomely.
By modern standards, the individual is a rational economic agent, concerned with maximising his own self interest. This is of course is the much despised ‘greed’ motive of capitalism. When this individual treats the human as a means, it will always be some form of exploitation or usury, whether its friendships for personal egoistical loyalties, or superficial connections for job shares and profit making, or becomes someone that needs to stomach the idea of working for a low wage for most of his life in a job that they hate, just cause they are used as ‘labour’. The sharing of ‘gain’ is loss, if it brings no interest. That’s why people avoid it if they could help it these days.
This is because this individual is concerned with the earthly, (i.e. worldly reward) of which the surplus is exploitation or usury [Reba] and an only be ever achieved at the expense of either people, or the natural environment (unsustainable industrial growth, pollution etc). The culture created is one of ‘futility’ where quality of existence is based on personal accumulation of ‘goods’ and ‘services’.(rational for GDP and economic growth)
By contrast, In Islam, the individual is a rational economic agent, also concerned with maximising his own self interest, but not in this life, rather in one where our free will, its virtues and the deeds they produce will be accounted for, to earn either eternal reward or eternal suffering, while reaping the earthly fruits of their action, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Their personal faiths and relationships with God, their places of worship, their sincerity and their seeking of the spiritual guidance will be judged by God ALONE.
The social order that needs to be created however is down to human convention and collective will as their freedom to choice makes them morally responsible.
This not only allows for the incentive to create worldly wealth through innovation and scientific advancement but also concentrate on the judgemental aspects of it, therefore giving due importance to transgression on humans, nature, animals, the biosphere and all that nature that shares objective existence with us, thereby becoming a function, or purpose which is to maintain Peace (Islam), in the land, and by extension, Life.
This is the message of Islam (the God and why Question), pure and simple, and not as the fanatics of historical totalitarian Islam taught the world.
Humans are but instruments of this purpose. If the word for God is the Peace in Islam then we serve peace and that is what ‘viceroy’ means. worship becomes all human acts that are means to fulfil this function. Nature is harmonious in peace. Anything that results in peace, life, security and spiritual health will undoubtedly bring to it’s bearer such a joyous feeling of contentedness and satisfaction, unmatched by the endless pursuit of happiness elsewhere. It’s opposite is all that results in oppression which leads to inequality which leads to insecurity and scarcity, which we naturally reject.
It’s the reason God says belief (peace) is ‘decorated’ in our hearts.
I myself, as a rational human being can see much joy coming from giving, without expecting now, as not only am I expecting greater returns on my investments now, later, but its because one is already given tastes of what to expect later, by the constant satisfaction one receives from giving and sharing and seeing the happiness and security that can bring.
However, I am not concerned with what their ‘happiness’ is, although undoubtedly I get to share it when they do, but I am not concerned with them agreeing with my idea of happiness as ultimately the person whom I give to still has the right to choose their own happiness and destinies in life. I am just concerned with worship, which is the enhancement of their capability to flower as full human beings in any way I can. If worship means serving peace and security then that’s what it is.
I expect that reward from God, not the individual. When they hurt my feelings that will just make me reflect on human’s fallibility and therefore responsibility and motivate me to take constructive action regardless of my own prejudices.
Just with a simple smile, virtues are rewarded in life... just like that…., like the beautiful emotion of love for my fiancé that sweeps every time we revel in a bond that we share. Feeling that it just makes me want to give more, continuously to cultivate it as a purpose, worship of peace (God) in it’s own right…and thus the self maximising motive….
Peace
SAINT!!
Highlander you seem like a very good and kind person from your post, its people like you in my opinion who make it to paradise(inshallah). The people who are selfless and wish only to do good to others, looking for no reward. I must say you have made me happy a great deal of times. Sometimes when i am in a crummy mood, all I have to do is come on to H's blog and read one of your posts. :P
I do agree that God is the source of happiness, and a relationship with him is the ultimate happiness.
(I deleted the last one because it might have been too personal and off topic.)
The Lost Libyano, thanks for explaining I was wondering what happened , I understand little brother. The previous post was beautiful though and very encouraging too. I'm glad I could bring you happiness. I can tell you that you will cross this tribulation one day and you will be very successful don't worry . Keep being yourself, capitalise on your soul forget the dirtiness of politics until you can deal with and get a degree, a gorgeous woman and make a wonderful life - this would be your best form of worship inshallah !
I myself, as a rational human being can see much joy coming from giving, without expecting now, as not only am I expecting greater returns on my investments now, later, but its because one is already given tastes of what to expect later, by the constant satisfaction one receives from giving and sharing and seeing the happiness and security that can bring.
Mani your post is perfect and I have nothing to add you are seriously on your way to winning the top 3 highlander fan contest :P
But really I appreciate most your wonderful clean soul...
i agree
Salam
walahe I dont know what to say..
thanks to both of you :)
I'm really happy to know that we can share these thoughts.
Bless you
Why is LibyanWarrior commenting on this subject? I'm pretty sure he's a sociopath :(
And H, why do you offer him encouragement? I was happy he left your blog. He's one of 4 or 5 extremely abusive people who lurk here. And I think they do that, H, because you encourage them instead of condemning them. Like what you just did here, calling him your "little brother" and praising him.
This is the God people like LibyanWarrior believe in:
Iraqis protest to mark Baghdad's fall
"God has ordered you to be patient in front of your enemy, and unify your efforts against them — not against the sons of Iraq," said the statement from al-Sadr, who has repeatedly called for a timetable for a U.S. withdrawal.
The entity that Al Sadr is in communion with is not God at all, of course, but rather the archenemy of God aka Satan. How is it so many Muslims (like Libyan Warrior and some of your other readers) can't tell the difference between God and Satan? Would you say LibyanWarrior is a good Muslim with all his preaching of hate and all his abuse and bigotry towards others, Highlander? DO you think he'll ever change? When he has the wonderful Islamic leaders like Muqtada al-Sadr for examples of correct behavior? The leaders of Islam are literally terrorists and murderers.
OK, my take on this as it relates to God, since Mani brought Him into it :)
This is really the core concept of Christianity. Treating others well. Give, and ye shall receive. The reward is in the the giving itself. And it's not a material reward, it's a spiritual reward. By giving of yourself you become a better human being, and by becoming a better human being you grow closer to God. This is the message of Jesus throughout the New Testament.
But... and now I'll draw Libyan Warrior back into it... there are limits. For instance, I don't personally believe that somebody who has demonstrated unprovoked malice against me deserves a "second chance" from me - that person will do me harm again, if they have the chance. Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to be somebody's doormat - by which I mean, you let soembody walk all over you, repeatedly, and believe that you are being a good person by doing so. Jesus didn't teach that.
The "Turn the other cheek" doctrine advocates passivity in the face of aggression. It does NOT advocate encouraging that aggression. The idea is to allow the aggression to go unanswered and then remove yourself from it's presence. Not to remain there and praise the person who just committed a malicious act against you. That would be a kind of masochism!
Off topic, but I think Christianity as it was meant to be died with the first crusade 1000 years ago. The early Christians were easy meat for Islam because they wouldn't defend their religion. And there was no other social power other than religion for Christians to rally behind. Eventually the Pope called the first crusade, after the Eastern Empire had been all but destroyed, Spain and Sicily (and the Christian Holy Lands in the ME) conquered and occupied by Muslim armies, etc. By launching a Holy War the Pope abandoned his own religion. The same religion he was trying to protect. And now many Christians aren't even Christian in anything but name, because of the Crusades, the inquisitions, etc. I personally don't think Christianity has existed in the form it was intended for a very long time, and those acts that were committed by "Christians" that cause other Christians to doubt, do not belong at the foot of Jesus.
I'm not saying the crusades weren't justified. They absolutely were, in my opinion, and a response should have come out of Europe a lot sooner than the 11th century. But the response should have not been in the guise of Christian Holy War. The Pope could have encouraged Kings to raise armies and take up the cause without invoking the name of God.
Programmer_craig, I agree with you that re. the Sadrist people. If you -one day -have the chance to read about the Shia parties you will understand that they do not represent God nor Islam in my opinion, it's a political/cultural agenda (no offense to anyone) like all other parties ( Islamic or otherwise)and talk is cheap and the masses are lemmings.
There are two aspects to what El Sadr is doing ,(1) he is capitalising on the nationalistic feelings behind a sectarian screen and (2)promoting his agenda.
The Iraqis are definetely not doing well since the fall of Baghdad and they need a scapegoat, we must admit of course that the post invasion was a fiasco in terms of security which led to the present day dilemna. Therefore unlike you I see no leaders of Islam in the example you have given.
However, if you want to discuss the rationale about Iraq I think dropping the assumptions about LW would be more beneficial to a mutual dialogue - I don't really see what's the use of bringing him into the discussion in addition to all the other assumptions you make especially with regards to a topic in which I'm talking about charitable feelings towards our fellow humans.
Nevertheless I thank you for your comment and look further to discussing this with you on another more appropriate post :)
LOL you must have sneaked in while I was making my comment :P
By launching a Holy War the Pope abandoned his own religion. The same religion he was trying to protect. And now many Christians aren't even Christian in anything but name, because of the Crusades, the inquisitions, etc. I personally don't think Christianity has existed in the form it was intended for a very long time, and those acts that were committed by "Christians" that cause other Christians to doubt, do not belong at the foot of Jesus.
I find your theory about Christianity and how it has turned interesting and comparable to those who say they are Muslims and probably are so only by name not faith and spiritually.
I believe we are enjoined by God to do good.
Thanks for your comment.
Programmer Craig, although I have no right to speak for Highlander, I'll try to explain why she shows more tolerance to LW than to you.
Although LW is nominally a young adult, I don't see in him the psychological characteristics of an adult. No internal integrity and consistency, no self-control, no respect to the facts, rudimintary logic. I guess this is why he triggers my maternal instinct. I would give him a second chance, a hundred second chances, as I would give them to an 8-yr-old. And I wouldn't feel insulted by him any more than by an 8-yr-old.
Just look at his last comment! I also have the bad habit of writing very long comments, but this is unique! If he had expressed his opinion on paper, he would have killed another rainforest tree.
I guess Highlander isn't letting my previous comment through because it had a lot of off topic stuff addressed to her. So... a brief response to the LW rantings:
Yeah, we all know how good your grasp of history is, dude. You've bought the Islamic version of it hook line and sinker, despite having been born and raised in the United States. Good on you. I know you'll continue believing your version no matter how at-odds it is with what everyone else in the world recorded.
Your comment about the Vandals predates Islam though, so Islamic history has nothing to do with it. Maybe I can correct you just this once, eh?
The Vandals did not go to North Africa to kill berbers. They went there to kill Romans, same as they had been doing in Gaul and Iberia. hey ran out of Romans in those places so they had to find more.
The Berbers were allies of the Vandals. The Alans (an Iranian tribe) accompanied the Vandals to North Africa. They served in the Vandal armies as light cavalry. They were excellent horsemen. That's the same role the Berbers filled in the Vandal armies. So, any accusation you have about the Vandals victimizing berbers is just a fiction you have created in your own head.
As for the Vandals being an example of un-Christian behavior, I don't see your point. The Vandals were Christians, but they never claimed they were doing God's work. They never even claimed their rampages were inspired by God. Most people don't even know that they WERE Christians, at all. That was a rare thing in Northern Europe at that time. I believe the Vandals and the Goths were the only German tribes among many who weren't pagans, then. So, what's your point? Are you going to accuse the US military of being a crusading army now, because most Americans are Christian? Somehow, that doesn't seem to resemble the quote I gave where Al Sadr is claiming to take orders directly from God, and has been told by God to stop murdering Sunni Muslims and start murdering Americans instead. Am I missing something?
PS-Your far more likely to be a descendant of Vandals than I am, LW. My ancestors came from north western Germany and had already resettled in Britain by the time the vandals moved out of north eastern Germany.
Pardon my interjection. What is the topic of this thread? Forgive me for intruding.
Sometimes I think I am the right place to enter the discussion. Other time not.
I was particularly interested in the discussion of good versis evil (people). The Garden of Good and Evil is where that all began isn't it? I'd like to to cultivate more understanding of their nature. To that end you can just call me:
"Gardener of Eden"
Dude H sorry, can you please cancle the last comment as well I added a few things. Thanx
Craig Said......
Why is LibyanWarrior commenting on this subject? I'm pretty sure he's a sociopath :(
And H, why do you offer him encouragement? I was happy he left your blog. He's one of 4 or 5 extremely abusive people who lurk here. And I think they do that, H, because you encourage them instead of condemning them. Like what you just did here, calling him your "little brother" and praising him.
This is the God people like LibyanWarrior believe in:
Iraqis protest to mark Baghdad's fall
The entity that Al Sadr is in communion with is not God at all, of course, but rather the archenemy of God aka Satan. How is it so many Muslims (like Libyan Warrior and some of your other readers) can't tell the difference between God and Satan? Would you say LibyanWarrior is a good Muslim with all his preaching of hate and all his abuse and bigotry towards others, Highlander? DO you think he'll ever change? When he has the wonderful Islamic leaders like Muqtada al-Sadr for examples of correct behavior? The leaders of Islam are literally terrorists and murderers.
The Libyan Warrior says.
1. Listen here and listen good, I am not the subject of debate on this thread, my spiritualty is not the topic of debate here. I see this as a direct act of provocation on your part. You are moving of topic, and you are trying to start a
conflict with me. Back off.
2. What the Hell does Al-Sadr have to do with the topic of this thread? And more importantly what the hell does he have to do with me? Why would you assume Sadr is my role model?
Am I a Iraqi? Am I a Shite? What the hell does Al-Sadr have to do with me? I am a Sunni Muslim, a Libyan berber who was born and raised in the US.
Mr.Sadr has nothing to do with me, nor do I have anything to do with him, we are from two diffrent contents, 1000's of miles away, we have two totally diffrent religions, and two totally diffrent cultures. Craig it would make more sense to label a Ice Fisher in the North Pole as a role model then this guy.
In response to your comment:
DO you think he'll ever change?
Not as long as their are hypocrites such as yourself out their.
Not as long as their are people like Robert Spencer, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwel, and the rest attacking my religion non-stop, and calling for the killing of Muslims I wont change. I wont stop telling the truth.Because in reality thats what you mean by bigotry telling the truth. You just cant handle it. Can you?
You can't handle the fact that your religion does not met the standards of Modern Day society,that the bible treats women like garbage, and subjagates all those who do not worship jehova and reject the teachings of Christ.
You cant stand the truth about Colonism,Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the other horrid acts your people have commited. When I state these things you are bothered by them, you call it bigotry, you call it a sign of being a sociopath?
Well now you know how I feel everytime I turn on the TV and I am bombarded with shows like 24 and countless other demonizing my religion, now you know how I feel when i turn on the evening news and their again my religion is
called satanic and evil, and when i turn on the radio more of the same, when I go to the bookstore, look whos followed me, why its none other then the 50 diffrent books, by the 50 diffrent people telling me how evil and my religion is, and when i go to school, even the college textbooks which use to be a source of accurate intelectual information, have become nothing more then propoganda, and when I leave the class room, why look at all the flyers, whos coming to visit, which new expert of the Evil Brutal nature of Islam is coming to visit? Is it Wafa Sultan, is it Manji, whos coming to tell me and every other Muslim both male and female that when we graduate and get married the Quran is going to order us to rape our wives, beat them unconcouse, and lock
them in a room till "death captures their souls"? You think I am a bigot when i talk about Christianity, or when I qoute the bible in a similar way your kind quotes the Quran? Do you think I am a evil sociopath when I talk about Western Civilization and Christandoms authrocities?
DEAL WITH IT!
I have to deal with the fact that 9/11 was commited by Muslims. I hate it, it eats me up inside it makes me sick, but I have to deal with the shame and humiliation, and the bad reputation that those people have given me, and Islam, when we are reminded of their actions on a daily basis, why shouldnt the horrors commited by your fellow Christian brothern make you feel the same way? I have to deal with every honor killing, and every scandle in the Muslim world commited by Muslms and blamed on Islam. Because when they commit those acts its not them who are critizized as human beings,its every single 1.5 Billion + Muslim on the planet, its our Religion who has to share the blame. Never mind if its cultural or traditional, its ALL ISLAM. Everything bad in the world done by a Muslim is proof that their religion is evil. If a Muslim steals a donut, the Quran told him to, if a husband kills his wife, Allah ordered it, weather it has anything to do with the Quran doesnt matter.I have to hear and see the daily 24/7 media coverage on how "backward and evil" Islam and it's Prophet are. And while I dont look like a stereotypical "Muslim", as soon as someone asks my name, their facial expression goes from a smile to a seriose frown in 2 seconds flat.
Ever got a ticket and the cop thinks he's talkin to some good old white boy and then when he finds out your a Muslim, he goes from a polite and a joking mood to a mood in which you can literally fell the hatred he has for you. Well thats the shit I have to deal with on a daily basis, so i see no reason why you shouldnt have to. No one likens Christianity with facism, mysogonism, hatred, rape, and genocide here in America. If someone where to do so they would be laughed out of town. Because in the Christian mind their religion is never a source of evil. To a Christian the Crusades, Inquisition, the Genocide of The Natives in the Americas, Colonization, Nazism never existed. It seems that you and many of your fellow Christians wish to twist my religion, and hold every act
done by a Muslim as a testament of the faith.So I will do my best to do the same to you, and to every Christian I met. I will be the Robert Spencer of islam, I will twist and turn and pervert everything you hold sacred, and I will smile, and I will play the civilized man, while you lose it in a fit of anger.
Islam and Christinity, and Judism are very similar, morally speaking. The vast majority of the Old Testament laws, are the laws on which Islam are based on.
The Biblical prophets morally speaking where No diffrent then Muhammad(PBUH). They waged war for good, they took slaves of war, they practiced pologmy, read the Old Testament yourself.
Jesus endoursed all of this himself when he said he has come to enforce the laws of the prophet not change them. Our Religions are the same, very much so.
But for some reason your people act hypocritical and try to make Islam look like a Barbaric faith, a evil hateful fate, and they try to make Christianity and Judism seem Morally Superior to Islam. What do you want me to do Craig? Put yourself in my shoes? I would think that we would have something incomman
Muslim, Jews, and Christians as seeing how atheists and secular progressives have a vendeta agaisnt tradtonal society, I would think we would be able to relate. Us having Abrahamic religions, and us trying to make them work
in the 21century, trying to keep true to our original message, but modernize, and survive in a secular society. But you guys dont want to do that you want to engage in the age old game of Islam and Mohammed(PBUH) bashing, you
want to point at the very things you belive in and call us savages. You want to twist our verses and make us sound like god awful monsters, you try to make our prophet look like a tyrant, the only natural thing I can try to do is do the same to you.
Robert Spencer is a Cathloic so he want to some how play the angel, and make us out to be the devil, the same goes for Pat Roberts, Falwell, Hagee, and the lot. They take horrible events which violate every tenent of Islam and try to make it sound like these acts are perfect examples of Islam. What the hell doe Pat Robertson mean when he says Osama bin Ladin may very well be the best Muslim on the face of the planet?
In that case I geuss hitler was the best Christian on the planet as well. Hitler wrote in Mein Kamph Hitler wrote:
"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."
Can we liken him to the Greatist Christian that ever lived?I dont see any reason why not. I dont see why you shouldnt be made to feel the same way. I will bring up the Serbs extermination of Muslims everyday, I will bring up the horrors of Algeria, The Horrors of The Americas, The Horrors of Vietnam, The horrors
of Rawanda done under the blessings of the cathloic church. All of these crimes where commited by Christians.
As a Response to your statement
"The leaders of Islam are literally terrorists and murderers."
Islam has leaders? Where has the Ottaman Empire been restablished? Is their some Calipha, or Amir you are talking about. Their is absolutly NO muslim authority in the world right now. If their was then all of these terrorists and vigalantes you are talking about would be labeled enemies of the state, apostates and hertics, creaters of mischeif and chaos like Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab was by Muhammad Ali Pasha. Islam has no leaders, so I have no idea who you are refering to. But since you have taken it upon yourself to appoint my leaders for me(as you always do) then I shall do the same for you.
Why are all Christian Leaders Pedophiles, Rapists, and Criminals?
As we see on pastor watch this month of April...
10 incidents have already been reported. http://home.comcast.net/~infidel666/pastorwatch.htm
In march 23 incidents of Sexual abuse and rape where reported against Christian pastors.Their are dozens of cases each month of Christian Pastors commiting horrid sexual crimes against small boys and girls, the elderly, ect.But for some reason no one ever relates this with the bible, these men are holy pastors of Jesus Christ, they know his word like the back of their hand, why are your leaders doing this craig. I think I have given you a advantage in this debate. I havent stated any incidents commited by Ordinary Citzens just pastors, if I where to document every incident, every crime, every rape, every murder, commited by a Christian in the US then I would be here for months just to accuratly report one days incidents.
Here is a Archive:
http://home.comcast.net/~infidel666/archives.htm
Thats more then courtsey then, Mr. Robert Spencer and Mr. Danial Pipes give the Muslim community. Now isnt it. Every Crime a Muslim commits causes his religion to be tried as well as himself. Let me ask you Craig are you a Good Christian? Why do you and your buddy curt spit out so much hate and venom on a daily basis on highlanders blog.?
In response to your statement
How is it so many Muslims (like Libyan Warrior and some of your other readers) can't tell the difference between
God and Satan?
Because according TO YOUR LEADERS we worship a Demon named Allah, thats what Pat Robertson said, he's not a small time preacher, HE'S PAT ROBERTSON! H is the Qaradawi of the Christian world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_NNNmXytZY
As is Pastor John Hagee in the Summer when 3000+ Lebenease Women, Children and Men where slaughtered( a number larger the 9/11). Pastor Hagee said it was the work of God and called for Israel to heavy up its attacks against
the Anti-Christs soilders(The Women and Children of Palistine and Lebonan)
When 9/11 happened every Main Stream Muslim Authority condemed the act, like the condemn every other act of terrorism nut jobs out their do in the name of Islam, while Christian Pastors only applaud terror and call for more terror.
Now I am by no means the Muslim equivalant of Mr. John Hagee or Pat Robertson, these guys are REAL christians, I mean real church goer's I dont even make it to friday prayer.lol. Is their hate speech against Muslims and Arabs a example of Good Christianity?
Is the KKK a example of Good Christianity, I mean the do call themselves the Christian Knights( after the The Knight Templar) and they do have bible study every week, do they represent your faith?
In response to you statement
I think Christianity as it was meant to be died with the first crusade 1000 years ago. The early Christians were easy meat for Islam because they wouldn't defend their religion. I through that in mainly for you, to point out that North Africa did not join the Ummah peacefully. Egypt in particular was a stronghold of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Alexandria at that time was probably the most important city in Christendom. Even more important than Rome itself.
Actually I won't list more examples. The entire 7th century history of Islam is nothing but war against Christians, after the few Jews who remained in the ME were subjugated. For the most part, those were not expansion into pagan lands. They were attacks on Catholic and Eastern Orthodox lands. Muslims even attacked the Russians in Ajerbaijan.
The crusades were more than justified. A forceful response should have been made 400 years before the first crusade. The response should have come when Muslim Arabs first left their own lands. The Christian middle east (which is to say basically all of it)was conquered by force.
And the Europeans certainly had a right to get involved, since southern Europe was also under attack. It's a damn good thing for Islam that Northern Europeans were still tribal at that time, and that those tribes were too busy kicking the shit out of other people to bother with what was going on down south. Because what was going on down south was pretty bad.
Anybody who thinks the crusades are an example of unjustified Christian aggression is flatly wrong. I'm not one for political correctness. Muslims had it coming, and more. And it should have happened sooner, before Islam was so deeply entrenched. 400 years is a long time.
Why Isnt that lovely, are you actually incinuating that that early Christians where peace lovers. You do know you are talking to a Berber Right? One of the first victims if those pacifists.And I am sure you know of the events which transpired shortly before Tariq ibn Zaid crossed the Gilbert ? Yes you European Christians leave those facts out how conviniant. Can you say Vandal? Can you say Byzantine? WHAT!
No you must be joking, Vandals invading berber lands? No not the great peace lovers of Iberia, or should I say Vandalusia. Yes we berbers never forget. 429 C.E, I personally will NEVER forget that date. I will have it tatotted on my
chest, just incase I ever suffer amnesia. Your statement once again reak of lies and hypocrisy. Was it not your Germanic Forefathers from the contenent of
ice and snow who pilliaged the jewel of tamazgha Cartage in 439 C.E?
Finally after much harship, bloodsheed and struggle we finally defeated you in 533. Let me ask you this, what did the Vandals do to benifit tamazgha? I know what the Imazighens did to better Vandalusia. We made it the site of Tolerance, Peace, Learning, and Scholarship for 800+ years! A becoan of hope for a Europe dwelling in the barbarism, and ignorance of Middle Age early Christinity. A age with no reason. Yes and what happened after that my peace loving christian friend? 534 C.E! No peace for tamazgha.
Justinian the 1st came with his sword as his lord Christ commanded.
"I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"-Matthew 10:34
He belived as a Christian Roman emperor, it was his divine duty to restore the Roman Empire to its ancient boundaries. In 560 you finally "pacified" us. You supressed our Religion. You outlawed The worship of Amun at Augila in the Libyan desert remember? And when my forefathesr wanted to worship our gods was it not Justinian who at the very beginning of his reign, deemed it proper to promulgate by law the Church's belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation; and to threaten all heretics with the appropriate penalties of death?
Mashallah I love your peace, love and tolerance. Wallah ya Craig you guys are really something. Was the religouse oppression and destruction of the temples of the ancient gods and kings of my forefathers a retaliation for Mohammed(PBUH) and Islam's teachings?
Thats what your suggesting, Just like Wafa Sultan who said that it was Islam with its teaching of the swords that lead to the crusades. Surley you are not going to tell me that Mohammed(PBUH) a man yet to be born was a cause for
Christandoms oppresion of the Libyan Peoples?
As a Berber, as a Non-European,Mohammed(PBUH) took up my cause and the cause of the rest of the non-european, non-western world. Your Christ came with the sword, and God sent Mohammed to put a sword in my hand, and my
African and Asian Brothers hands, to protect our land and property. He came as a response to New Testaments Verses and teachings. Why do you think we accepted Islam so hastily. Christians where war mongering before Islam, you
know it, and I know it. I have done you a favor Craig, I have only spoken of the oppression which has been done to my peoples, I have not stated the equally if not greater tyranny that rest of the world has suffered under the early christan empires hands. Maybe you can pass your invalid islamophobic psydeo-historianship off on the simple minded airheaded mallrat self-depercating Arab-American "students" who spend their free time getting drunk and partying, who hate their great and nobel culture. But Let me assure you Craig i am not one of those gel haired prissy frat boy pansies.Not me bud, my mom and dad raised me to be a proud Muslim, a Proud Imazighen, and a Proud Libyan!
I know the histroy of my peoples, my religion, like the back of my hand, this is my obsesion, this is what I live for. My social life consists of sitting in a corner with headphones learning every detail of the history of my forefathers, and the history of my enemies. REMEMBER THAT the next time you wish to bring such baseless assertions about your people and their "Passive" doctrine of "Love and Tolerance". That wont fly with me buddy I WILL CALL YOU OUT ON ANY HISTORICAL INACCURACIES WHICH YOU MAY TRY TO PASS OF ON THE GENERAL UNEDUCATED MASSES.
In Response to:
If a Christian Army (of which there were a great multitude in Europe in the 7th century) had shown up in 638 and kicked the invaders the hell out of land that didn't belong to them, then Muslims wouldn't have ANY claim to a SINGLE SPECK of the land that is Israel today.
Europe and Israel? Where is Israel again?
Ya Highlander I forget sometimes, is that the country next to Sweden or Polond? Islam came to give back Middle Eastern land for Middle Easterners. It took Middle Eastern lands away from the hands of Europen INVADERS hands.
In response to
I through that in mainly for you, to point out that North Africa did not join the Ummah peacefully. Egypt in particular was a stronghold of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Alexandria at that time was probably the most important city in Christendom. Even more important than Rome itself.
Well isnt that lovley Highlander, he's doing it for you.lol. Just as he is waging war in Iraq for the people their.
More Christian hypocrisy. As far as North Africa was concerned if I remember correctly it was under Oppresive Byzantine Occupation in Egypt. When the Muslims came to Egypt the coptic people embraced them with open arms. Was it not Cyrus the Byzantine Christian prefect in Egypt who persecuted local coptic christians?
The Muslims were assisted Copts, who found the Muslims more tolerant than the Byzantines, and of these some turned to Islam. The Christian inhabitants of Egypt were excused military service and left free in the observance of their religion and the administration of their affairs. As far as Berber North Africa is concerned, it was also under forign occupation from you oh so tolerant Jews and Christians. Kahina WAS NOT A BERBER.
She was the daughter of Tabat, a chieftain of the Jrāwa tribe from the Aurès Mountains. She as jewish as well as her tribe. During this period, many Jews sought refuge from Byzantine persecution in Aurès in Tamazgha.
She was a crazy forigner, who heard a rumor that The Muslims where coming so she took it upon her self to embarce on a scorched earth campaign, burning up Libyans folk's crops and fields, and raising buildings that my ancestors had built thousands of years before, the calamity known as jews arrived. This caused Libyan folk to become extreamly pissed off. So when Hasan ibn Nu'man came to liberate us from this mad jew in 669, Berbers supported him, and the vast majority converted to Islam by will. Islam was the greatist thing that ever happened to north africa it allowed the berber people to reclaim our honour by ushering in the grand berber islamic dynasties the Almohads, Almoravids and the Marinid dynasty to name a few, which united Tamazgha particularly the Almohads, and conquered Iberia, which in my opinion was pay back for the humility and oppression the vandals had engaged in against the Imazighen peoples.
In Response to:
what if they hadn't been there 1400 years at all?
Peace in the Middle East. No War on Terror, today.
Yes no war on terror European Christians would have massacared all of the Non-European Christians as they did when they entered peace loving Jeruslam and Killed every man women and child they found weather Muslim, Christian or Jew. Why did they kill fellow Christians? Histrians say because they where concidered inferior to the Western Christian, and thus the blood of the infidel rode knee high to the ankles of Crusaders of horseback. Gee I bet they dont teach that on the 700 Club do they? If Islam never came their would be no Non-Europeans alive. As far as Northern Europeans Craig we kicked their asses when they came down to the south, so bad that the Vikings never traded or raidedthe Mediteranian Again!
In Response to
Three tribes of Jews expelled from Medina in three years. No Jews left in Medina. Whatever the historical justification is for this, it doesn't speak very well for a precedent of religious tolerance, does it?
See Hghlander this Guy wants to take some kind of modern day moral highground when it comes to behavior of biblical prophets. Lets Go Below
Numbers 31: And the Lord said unto Moses, "Avenge the children of the Mid'-an'ites.. They warred against the Mid'-i-an'ites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they slay all the males. And they took all women as captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. Moses said, "HAVE YOU SAVED ALL THE WOMEN ALIVE? NOW KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, AND KILL EVERY WOMAN that has known a man by lying with him, but all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves."
Sounds like Molosivich if you ask me. Didnt he kill all the Male Muslims, and rape all the female Muslims highlander?
[Joshua 6:23,21]Joshua said to the people of Israel, "The Lord has given you the city of the all silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: They shall come into the treasury of the Lord.
The people utterly DESTROYED ALL THAT WAS IN THE CITY, BOTH MAN AND WOMAN,YOUNG AND OLD, AND OX AND SHEEP, AND ASS, WITH THE EDGE OF THE SWORD.
Hmmm.........
Now what does the bible say about people who do not worship the God of Israel.
Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."
Sounds like what happened to the ancient Libyans if you ask me. After 1000's of years of European oppression we thought things where bad, but then came the Christians who under divine order massacred all those who worshiped the ancient ones.
Heres some more Biblical Prophetic Tolerance.
1. Dinah, the daughter of Jacob, is "defiled" by a man who seems to love her dearly.
Her brothers trick all of the men of the town and kill them (after first having them
all circumcised), and then take their wives and children captive. 34:1-31
2. After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she "played the harlot"
and "is with child by whoredom." When Judah hears this, he says, "Bring her forth,
and let her be burnt." 38:24
3. These verses clearly show that the mass murder of innocent children by the God of
Bible was premeditated. 11:4-6 (see 12:29-30)
4. To commemorate the divine massacre of the Egyptian children, Moses instructs the
Israelites to "sacrifice to the Lord all that openeth the matrix" -- all the males,
that is. The Bible God has no use for dead, burnt female bodies. 13:2, 12, 15
5. "The Lord is a man of war." 15:3
6. Any person or animal that touches Mt. Sinai shall be stoned to death or "shot
through." 19:12-13
7. The God of the bible gives instructions for killing and burning animals. He says
that if we will make such "burnt offerings," he will bless us for it. What kind of
mind would be pleased by the killing and burning of innocent animals? 20:24
A child who hits or curses his parents must be executed. 21:15, 17
Tolerant eh?
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 21:24-25
If an ox gores someone, "then the ox shall surely be stoned." 21:28
If an ox gores someone due to the negligence of its owner, then "the ox shall be
stoned, and his owner shall be put to death.". 21:29
If an ox gores a slave, the owner of the ox must pay the owner of the slave 30
shekels of silver, and "the ox shall be stoned." 21:32
I geuss thats the old south for ya?
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Thousands of innocent women have suffered
excruciating deaths because of this verse. 22:18
"Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death."
Dude are you seriosly going to kill all the chicks who do donkey shows south of the
boarder? their must be some human rights law that violates. Why do you get in between
the love of a man and his goat?
He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly
destroyed." If this commandment is obeyed, then the four billion people who do not
believe in the biblical god must be killed. 22:20
Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14
God orders the sons of Levi (Moses, Aaron, and the other members of their tribe that
were "on the Lord's side") to kill "every man his neighbor." "And there fell of the
people that day about 3000 men." 32:27-28
Whoever works, or even kindles a fire, on the Sabbath "shall be put to death." 35:2-3
Dude I am tired, and I havent even got to Levitcus yet. Thats where all the good stuff begins. Go push your tolerant hypocrisy on somebody else.
H I hope this shows you what I am every other Muslim here have to deal with on a daily basis. You are Blessed to be in Libya, you truley are, you and the rest back home dont know how good you have it. It bugs when when I go and see people talking so greatly about America and how they wont to go, you guys have no idea what its like here.
I will post the rest of the "tolerance" of Jesus and the Old testament prophets on my blog today their about 900 incidents, of love and peace and UN sanctioned International Human rights praises that deserve to be spoken of.
I would like to note that I personally dont belive these incidents occured, yes War was waged on non-belivers but i dont belive women and children where burned and killed, i think and I dont mean offense but this was what the jews and the christians added to their works, God is just and he says in the Quran that the Children of Israel went to excesses, and they went and transgreed their limits.
In anycase H have a great day, and enjoy Libya and your freedom, go to the beach and breath in the Mediterranean breeze, go and visit Luptis Magna and remember that if it wear not for Islam and our beloved Prophet our past would have been destroyed like so much of Europes by these peoples of war and terror.
Go to the mosque, go to a Shrine of a saint and be greatful that Libya does not persecute Muslims, that our sites are not desecrated as they are here in America by thugs and criminals. Be greatful that you are in Libya, be grateful for your freedom. And when enjoying it H remember that I as well as many other Libyans wish we have what you have. I personally resent my parent for ever coming to this wretched country, and causing me to born here; and thus to be subjected to hatered and intolerance from everyside.
I would trade places with any Libyan born back home, I would give anything to have been born and raised in Libya, I have been cheated of happiness and a nurishing enviornment, I live in a land where I and my religion, my culture, and people are demonized non-stop, where we are unjustly put into concentration camps, and never allowed to recive due process. Oh how I envy you H, and I dont mean to take you by the evil eye.lol. Just be greatful is all I have to say. Go to a Libyan Soilder or police officer and thank them for defending our soverignty and freedom, go and see Omar al-Mokhtar's movie and be reminded of the sacrifice of freedom. When you think of Christianity think of the Italians.Who caused the death of half of Libya's men, women, elderly and childern, directly through public hangings and shootings.
Sorry everyone I have not had the time to release the comments ...too much work. but now it is all done.
Lost Libyan , you already deleted your comment which was by the way better than this last one - just so you know. So I can't do anything about it. I let this one through although I have a LOT of reservations about some details. But I don't wish to get into that.
Briefly,I'm sure living in America is not as bad as you describe it, and you are romanticising a bit Libya because you come for the holidays only.
However, please do not resent your parents they had their reasons to immigrate and they were welcomed in a new country which became their home. So I'm going to ask you this if you really want to live here ( Libya), get your degree, be a good citizen of where you were born because it is also your country ( motherland), set a beautiful example and come back to Libya ( homeland)to use your skills for your Libyan brothers.
In this way you are usuful to both your lands regardless if your motherland hurt you or if your homeland hurt you. They are both inseparable and to be loved.
PS We can even find a gorgeous jbaliya here for you
@Gardener of Eden thank you for your comment, and hope you could clarify more.
Highlander, after you haven't yet released my earlier comment on this thread, please don't, because it is likely to insult LW personally (though this wasn't my intention). I am now submitting a censored version of the same comment:
Programmer Craig, I have no right to speak for Highlander, but, like her, I am always ready to give LW a second chance. Also, I almost never feel offended by him. This is because I see in him signs of immature personality. They make him seem to me much younger than he really is and so trigger my maternal instinct of forgiveness and protection. So, if it seems to you that Highlander treats you and LW with double standards, keep in mind that this may have legitimate reason not related to his and your views.
"bring happiness where there is misery; hope where there is despair and laughter where there are tears"
That's often very easy to do, and doesn't have to require much investment. Sometimes it just takes a little imagination.
As for being "hurt when it doesn't work", maybe that simply means too much was invested and/or the motivation was selfish to begin with.
Maya I had released it but it is buried under many comments . However now you have both so you can delete whichever you prefer :).
Thank you for acknowledging my post Highlander.
The heartache is that each day people kill each other.
Is that a lesser or greater sin than "To have no other Gods before Me?"
My wish (and I hope God's wish) is that we would stop killing each other long enough to sort out why we do it.
I'm reminded of a story.
On a cold dreary day a man with many sorrows stands at the top of a high cliff. In great anguish he called out to God(Allah). "Is today the day that I should die?"
This is not the first day he has stood on that same cliff and cried. But today is different. This time he clearly hears an answer and obeys it. The answer
he hears is "Jump". At the gates of paradise Allah (God) meets him and exclaims "Why did you jump?" "Because you told me too" the man cries! "I did not", God replys. "Did you not hear me? I clearly called out Stop!"
Gardener of Eden
Chris you've finally deigned to enter the conversation eh ?
I don't think the motive was selfish , TUS gets hurt when she fails in bringing happiness not when she does not get a thank you in return - of course so do I for that matter :)
Gardener of Eden , thanks for coming back that story is profound alas for those who can see and hear with their inner eye. The day we stop and wonder why we are killing each other is the day when Satan will have no hold over humanity.
trigger my maternal instinct of forgiveness and protection.
lool. Your funny Maya:)
Although LW is nominally a young adult, I don't see in him the psychological characteristics of an adult.
Yes I am sure you don’t. In your minds we colored’s are half/devil half child.
No respect to the facts,
rudimentary logic.
lol. 200 years and you guys don’t change same white supremacist logic. Yes Maya I have no respect for your "facts", if ludicrous, and historically inaccurate statements made by the likes of the Robert Spencer's of the world are any indication of your "facts" then yes I concur, i do not have respect for them.
I guess this is why he triggers my maternal instinct. I would give him a second chance, a hundred second chances, as I would give them to an 8-yr-old. And I wouldn't feel insulted by him any more than by an 8-yr-old.
That’s alright Maya, thanks but no thanks.
If the events that took place in Benghazi are representive of Bulgarian women’s "motherly instincts" for 8 year olds, I think I will take my chances being judged as a young man.
You've bought the Islamic version of it hook line and sinker, despite having been born and raised in the United States. Good on you.
You’re damn right good on me.
I know you'll continue believing your version no matter how at-odds it is with what everyone else in the world recorded.
Actually my statements are exactly on the same page with the vast majority of historians of the era. If you would like my sources, I will give them to you. I dont use wikapedia or any of the other tabloids parading as Encyclopedias. I personally get my information from scholarly references. You should try it sometime, most of this stuff you post (like you comment pertaining to Islamic History and The Crusades) sound like ramblings of a southern evangelical Historical Revisionist. Did you copy your statements out of John Hagees, Jerusalem Countdown?
Lost Libyan , you already deleted your comment which was by the way better than this last one - just so you know.
Well thats you opinion, but I felt that the later was a more appropriate response, given the circumstances.
Briefly,I'm sure living in America is not as bad as you describe it, and you are romanticising a bit Libya because you come for the holidays only.
You are "sure". Why do you speak with such certinity, from your previouse posts you stated that you have never been to America; how can you be sure of the living conditions, or the political atmosphere of a place which you have never been to? Your certinity reminds me of the women who wrote about the dire situation of darfur in her report to the UN, when she herself had never set foot on Sudanease soil.
PS We can even find a gorgeous jbaliya here for you
lol. thanks.:) I will find you a nice Libyan American here, would you like a lawyer, doctor, taxi driver? We have them all:)
I have a LOT of reservations about some details.
I am sure you do, the truth is a frightening thing.
and you are romanticising a bit Libya because you come for the holidays only
Looool. A 'bit' only. :)
you think the thank a soilder and police officer part was a bit too much:)
Gardener of Eden.
Cool Profession.lol.
The day we stop and wonder why we are killing each other is the day when Satan will have no hold over humanity.
Well H satan only has as much hold on humanity, as humanity lets Satan have on them.
LW, I apologize to you for the personal remarks.
Just keep in mind please that you cannot emotionally blackmail me using the white man's guilt. I am free of that guilt, my nation has never conquered or done any other harm to any "coloured" nation. But even if my ancestors had done something of the kind, I wouldn't see it as a reason to be silent today while some people (most of whom happen to be "coloured", like most of the world's population), try to destroy the civilization.
When I feel like buying wisdom from a "coloured" person, I don't turn to this sort of people. I read instead Hirsi Ali, Nonie Darwish or Ali Sina.
Maya thank you for this approach, I'm hoping that we can bring Lost Libyan to safety by showing him that humanity is good regardless of our differences, that he is not lost and that there are people who care.You are probably right about the maternal instinct , I think it is built-in in women, you have no idea how much I extend this instint to more than LW :)=> the people concerned know it LOL. Which brings us back to the topic of this post full circle .
I disagree of course about the statement that it is mostly coloureds who are trying to destroy and also the 'wisdom' of Hirsi;) the others I have not read , however I do respect everyone's opinion and right to speech.
Lost Libyano, Maya is right about the 'white man's burden' i.e. only Western ( no offense to anyone as this is the past) white men/women felt this guilt from colonial :P times, we've read this theory too remmember ?
PS I don't want a Libyan-American ( again no offense to the wonderful guys out there) as I would not know clearly where I am with him, it's got to be either full Libyan Libyan LOL or American American no half -measures for Highlander :P.
As for me not having been to America you are right , I don't know how it is there at all, except from books , movies, news , newspapers, blogs and a few friends. But I'm just thinking that it cannot be hell on earth if a few good people have come out of there right?
But you are right we probably should refrain from giving an all encompassing opinion about something we know nothing about ?
Gardener of Eden you may yet win the best of the comments award for April 2007 .
Thank you for your compliment Highlander. As I am just getting used to you site I see that the best place to be discussing good and evil would be under your post how "good" people can be made to do bad things. I'll find it again and post more there. I have some very strong feelings about such things.
Progammer Craig.
From reading more of you posts on the thread you seem to be pretty jaded in you views about humanity in general. You views are very interesting. They seem as thought they are very much a result of you past experiences. Sort of Like Libian Warriors are perhaps?
Highlander,
Maya is right about the 'white man's burden' i.e. only Western ( no offense to anyone as this is the past) white men/women felt this guilt from colonial :P times
I think that's a British thing. I haven't seen it in the French or the Spanish, who should presumably share this "guilt" equally with the Brits.
It's most certainly NOT a western thing. Most of the nations in western Europe did not particpate in the "age of empires" in any way.
Maybe it's a "guilt by association" thing, in which case maybe Maya should feel guilty for what the Soviets did? :O
As for LibyanWarrior's opinion about America, well... what is his opinion worth? :P
GardenerOfEden,
They seem as thought they are very much a result of you past experiences.
Very much so.
Sort of Like Libian Warriors are perhaps?
He is a 20 year old college student. I celebrated my 20th birthday in a war zone.
Programmer Craig
I celebrated my 20th birthday in a war zone.
And you came out as basically the same kind of person you went in?
Highlander, even without this post of yours, your determination to do good is evident!
I just wonder why you disagree with me: do you deny that efforts to destroy the civilization are being made, or that people doing them are coloured, or just the general portrayal of coloured people as destructive? I've never meant the last. Besides, the 2 previous serious attempts to destroy the civilization were done by very white people (the Russians and the Germans) and for the latter, their whiteness was not an incidental fact but an important element of their doctrine.
LW doesn't seem more coloured than me (as he once mentioned, he's whiter than some native British) but now he claims he's coloured and I'm white, in order to attack me as racist. Of the three people I mentioned, only Hirsi Ali is truly coloured. Darwish is an Arab and Sina is an Iranian. My observation is that Iranians are as white as many native European populations but are often considered as non-white (both by others and by themselves) because of their non-European location and mainly Islamic faith. Most people don't regard race as a purely anthropological issue but judge it in interaction with culture and history. Therefore I put "coloured" in quotation marks.
The current war against the West is led by Arabs; what would you say, are they coloured or not? Most Arabs are darker than most native Europeans, but if we take the maybe obsolete division of humans into "big races" - black African, black Australian, white and Orienthal + native American, where do the Arabs belong? To the whites, of course. My impression is that this position near the dark end of the white race continuum leads Arabs to a complex perception of their own racial identity with far-reaching and generally bad consequences, of which the least harmful (though telltale) is the wasting of money by Arab girls on stupid whitening cremes. I even suspect that the racial issue is important in motivating Arab Islamists to attack the civilization, though not as important as it was for the Germans.
I wish Programmer Craig were right that mainly the British feel the white man's guilt, but unfortunately here I disagree with him. Throughout "old" Europe, even nations who have never had colonies are being convinced by Third Wolders and local Leftists that after they are rich and the Third Worlders are poor, then they must have robbed the Third Worlders in some way. In USA, the most successful melting pot, the past enslavement and discrimination of blacks by whites has created a local variant of the white man's guilt. Let's consider it, as it is more clear-cut than in Europe. Some unscrupulous black guys and some silly white guys seriously claim that because of history, all US blacks are forever victims of all US whites and as such are entitled to never-ending special status and compensations. It is really funny to see how these black activists, while fiercely denying any notion of biological inferiority of their race, at the same time demand (and obtain) privileges normally given only to disabled people. As a result, the mainly white US establishment let blacks do things it would never let whites to do. Consequently, black ghettos formed whose inhabitants depend on welfare and crime for subsistence. Few of them make efforts to be law-abiding citizens, good students or hard workers - and they are accused by their peers in "acting white" and despised as "Uncle Toms". All this we see now to be repeated with the new non-white minorities of Europe (of which, as I mentioned, some are actually white). Islam also fits to the pattern, but while many of the immigrants to Europe have been Muslims for centuries, the black activists of the type described above converted to Islam. I would wish somebody to try and explain the latter fact.
Maya thanks for this comment, actually you make a lot of sense but I still disagree on some points which I will try to clarify in a while. I just wanted to acknowledge your comment :)
Lost Libyano this is a good comment
A Uncle Tom has no honour(this is a very important concept amongst us post-colonial peoples).
which epitomises what an 'uncle tom' has begun to mean!
Maya sorry I have not replied earlier .... but again better late than never .
As I said in my earlier brief reply, your comment has a 'logical' flow but inherently it is filled with holes and suppositions and your theory does unfortunately not stand.
Efforts to destroy the civilization?
Maya are you serious, so you think that Muslims people Arab and non Arab are all out there with one goal in mind destruction of CIVILIZATION ? that 's a powerful accusation :P ( even though you are saying that Russians and Germans attempt to destroy civilisation before. I don't think that is an objective Maya. But what I think is that it is a good propaganda tool for scaremongering.
As for being coloured or not I think Lost Libyano explained the concept, whereby even if he was an albino :P with an non western sounding name and especially Arab linked he is in effect 'coloured'. And I think you got that correctly with your reference to Arabs and Iranians etc...
My impression is that this position near the dark end of the white race continuum leads Arabs to a complex perception of their own racial identity with far-reaching and generally bad consequences, of which the least harmful (though telltale) is the wasting of money by Arab girls on stupid whitening cremes.
Arabs do not consider themselves as darker whites :P they have no racial identity we are just Arabs of various colours and tones. Fairness may be sought but hey that's part of the marketing strategies. Why is no one saying that the Westerners are complexed when they want to tan :P
You have to admit that the prevalence of cosmetics and fashion is strongly exported from the West and the models are 'white' despite the Naomis and others :P In department stores the range of make up for darker skin tone is 'less' right ? even Asians have a problem .... Moreover all these lightening creams etc.. are made in China where there is a culture of white plaster like make up....
I agree with you that blacks in America should not get reverse discrimination and be 'forever victims'... However, I think it is a bit of an exageration to claim that the black activists are all Muslim and it is the Muslim blacks who are non Law abiding and bad students, and non hard workers and that is why they are in guettos => linking that directly to Islam Maya is not very scientific is it ?
We do not have black ghettos or any colour ghettos in our Arab countries...
I'm a bit disappointed at this bid to portray Islam, Muslims etc.. as the protagonists for the destruction of civilisation ....where the Germans Muslims ?
On second reading this theory is obviously flawed no :)?
Thank you for your comment, Highlander (and LW too). I'll be happy if my theory doesn't stand, because it is a bleak theory. However, I still don't see it disproved.
Talking about THE civilization, I of course mean the Western civilization. I have respect for non-Western cultures, esp. those that didn't wage wars against the West, but it is evident that none of them advanced as much as the Western one. Let's take science and technology alone. I think that if Western civilization is destroyed, or just suffers a serious blow, this will decimate the world's population by one or more orders of magnitude as a result of war, outbreaks and famine. And while I think that our small planet is currently inhabited by too many people, I don't want to see their numbers reduced this way. However, in the minds of al-Qaeda guys, billions of deaths probably are a fair price for their dream of a global caliphate; and I think the majority of other Arabs just don't see the far-reaching consequences of the policies and trends they approve. They want to quash seemingly minor but in fact vital aspects of Western civilization, such as secularism or the right to draw cartoons mocking this or that prophet. Or remember how during the Paris riots, youths were reported to exchange SMS messages with calculations when they would become a majority in France. Didn't anybody of them think what exactly they would do after becoming a majority, and that their parents had fled screaming countries where they were majority?
I have previously recommended Ortega y Gasset's "Revolt of the masses" and I'll do it again, although the book is somewhat racist. Among other things, Gasset says that fascists feel free to attack freedom because they think that it will never disappear in earnest but will be here again when they need it. I think the situation is similar with the Arab public opinion. On Febr. 13, 2006, Big Pharaoh wrote a post "Boycott till you die" (http://www.bigpharaoh.com/2006/02/page/6/). He described the worries of Egyptian diabetics receiving Danish insulin that their insulin supply would be hurt by the anti-Danish boycott. Yes, Arabs boycott and attack in other ways the West while using its goodies, and being sure that the goodies will be always there when needed. I'm sure that if they achieve a new "age of Islam", most of them will very soon regret it.
Of course my opinion about Arabs' thoughts include much speculation, because I speak no Arabic. You should know better. I really wish to be disproved, but so far I see no hope.
My opinion about the Arabs' perception of their own skin colour has many sources, let's quote the three most important ones - the Aug. 2006 discussion on your blog at http://lonehighlander.blogspot.com/2006/08/matchmaking-in-libyan-newspapers-still.html, Sandmonkey's post how unhappy his mother was about having a dark-skinned son-in-law (http://www.sandmonkey.org/2006/06/21/on-racism-and-social-classes/) and Roba's rant about the whitening creams (http://andfaraway.net/blog/2006/07/06/fair-and-not-so-lovely/). Tanning is an irrelevant comparison because it is a natural reaction, while the whitening cosmetic products aim to achieve an appearance for which you have no genes. Not that I have high opinion of the tanning mania - it reveales obsession with social status (I have enough money and time to waste it at some resort lying idly under the sun). But I fear that the value Arabs put in "fairness" reveals some low self-esteem, some racism of self-hate type which spells disaster for those who have the desired fairness but are otherwise wicked, i.e. the white supporters of civilization. Perhaps we must urgently integrate large numbers of dark-skinned people in order to stop being fair (additional benefit - less skin cancer), but this is more difficult than it sounds, and it hasn't made Americans and Jews more loved by Arabs :).
Describing in very short words the situation with the blacks in America, I of course couldn't be very precise. Not all harmful black activists were Muslim and not all black Muslims were very active in politics (the icon here is of course Malcolm X). I also didn't mean that the underclass blacks in ghettoes are Muslims. It was the leaders who converted, while the underclass people (most believing in nothing) appeared as a result of the policies pushed by these leaders. What I meant was that as early as 1960s, Islam was used as a banner by those fighting the traditional (civilized Western) society and its values. LW actually doesn't disprove me; he admits that the black activists' conversion had nothing to do with God but was meant to drive crazy their opponents and possibly motivated by a belief that Islam promotes equality and rejects slavery - a thing which can be believed only by a person uninformed about the Koran's teachings and the actual history of Muslim nations, but it is quite possible that these blacks had the needed ignorance.
Yes, you are right that I am portraying Islam and Muslims as "the protagonists for the destruction of civilisation" (I of course mean only the current attempt, not the earlier ones waged by the Germans and the Russians). And you see that LW found no argument to disprove me other than portraying the Ottoman Empire as a civilizing force! My only hope is that Muslims will leave Islam en masse.
I see no real contradiction between LW's and mine opinion about "Uncle Toms". Let me try some English-to-English translation of what he said. He said that black doctors and lawyers aren't regarded as Uncle Toms. Of course they aren't, because they are well paid! In the eyes of the anti-white blacks, these professionals are exploiting the white society using its own tools (especially the lawyers, who are usually regarded as being paid much more than their real productivity requires). It is the black person who works 40 or 48 hours per week for a small salary who is "Uncle Tom". Remember the chorus of the Paris arsonists: "I'll never work for ... franks per month like my father"?
LW says that Uncle Toms "demonize their own people". You can say, with some justification, that I demonize Arabs. This is because I see them threatening my values - again, with more or less justification. Well, couldn't an Arab or Somalian share my values and, as a consequence, attack his own people for waging war against those values? The Uncle Toms are those coloured people who see work, rule of law, democracy, secularism etc. as universal values, while those attacking the Uncle Toms see those values as "white" and proclaim the opposite values for coloured people. For me, the concept that a person must stick to this or that set of values because of his origin and racial affiliation is full-blown racism.
One of our "Big Brother" TV shows included a Gypsy man. After the show, he once addressed his fellow Gypsies, advising them to try really hard to find work and not to steal and depend on welfare. You had to see how harshly the poor man was attacked after that! Indeed, he wasn't called Uncle Tom - his opponents weren't educated enough to know the term.
Highlander, perhaps when I am speaking against the Arabs, I should repeat every time that I don't imply any biological inferiority, don't reject all of the Arab culture and admit that there are many Arabs admirable in every respect (though unfortunately they turn out to be a minority in each of the rare cases when something in an Arab country is subjected to direct vote). Of course you are one of these Arabs. Another one is Sandmonkey. And now I want to complain of something I've just discovered: Sandmonkey has stopped blogging, saying he fears for his safety and has no hope to change things this way.
So one of the few open-minded Arab voices is silenced. Remember the time when you had just begun to recover from a serious trauma and some anonymous bastard attacked you for putting a link to Sandmonkey's blog? This bastard may be happy now. Unfortunately, I seem to be right that things are going terribly wrong in the Arab world.
Remember the time when you had just begun to recover from a serious trauma and some anonymous bastard attacked you for putting a link to Sandmonkey's blog?
Well whoever that anonymous bastard was he had a point. Sandmonkey is a evil, hateful, bigoted, Islamophobe. And by putting a link up to his site you are supporting Islamophobia.
I am deeply troubled and offended by this. Seeing as how I am a Berber and My Religion is Islam. And a person who is residing in my ancesteral homeland, my inherant birth right is propogating hatred towards my religion and the religion of my people.
And whats worse is that person is a geust here, they are not even one of the natives. They are not one of the indigonous. They are not bound here by means of blood.
The only thing which binds them here, the only reason they are allowed to be "Libyan" is because of the very religion they propogate hatred for. I am not saying you have to be a Muslim to live in Tamazgha, or Libya, but what I am saying is at the very least have respect for your hosts religion, and their belifes. Its the least you can do.
And make no mistake about it, by putting a link to sandmonkeys blog, you are propogating hatred towards Islam, you are giving him publicity to spread his ideas. Its not a issue of free speach its a issue of respect and faith. You are running a personal blog, you are free to promote whatever you want, you are not under any obligation to voice his hatered. I speak from experiance, I dont put blogs, I dont like on my roll sheet. I put ones I like, and I agree with.......
I know you are going to give me the old liberal rag of "everyones opinion matters". In that case why not put a link to robert spencer's Jihad Watch up their he has alot to say? How about a link to the National Vangaurd they have alot to say about our region as well, hey if you want everyone why do you invite some Jihadi Wannabes, put a link to the Muslim Brotherhood,or some other braindead duchbags, they have some rubish to spew as well, if anything their blogs are more famouse then Sandmonkies is by far. Everyones opinion is welcome, eh? But in truth you do support alot of what Sandmonkey says, you are a Pan-Arabist, you just havent sunk to his level, or maybe you have, maybe you just lean further to the right. You belive Islam is not a divine religion, but a important part of Arabic Culture.
And any praise or defense you have given it on this blog is not done out of your love for its prophet, its book, but a love for your culture. you view it as a historical bond, maybe even your mind a sign of Arab strenght or imperialism? I dont know you, so I cant say. All i know about you is what you put on this blog, and thus your motives and your stances, and your belifes are questionable, if not contridictory. Praise Islam? Then promote a Islamophobe? You see where I am getting at? Sandmonkey is a Islamophobe, he supports the danish cartoons, he has links like this on his blog
http://aarons.cc/
That really does hurt H.
That bothers me beyond what words can explain. It hurts me deeply. And I will tell you why. Because you see the only thing which bonds our two peoples is this lovley religion, Islam.
Islam teaches that all Muslims are brothers and sisters, and in that sense we are, their is no diffrence between us, we are one peoples, with one land. One faith. Issues such as Lingustics are not important for the Quran is in arabic, and thus it is the highest language in my opinion for it is the language which God choose to reveal his final revalation in. Its a very big deal. And thus in a Nation Of Islam, their is no such thing as Berber or Arab, but their is only Muslim. And the langauge of Islam is Arabic, and thus the langauge of the Muslims is arabic. But when certain people, wish to discard Islam. They not only discard the Holy word of God, they discard the bond between to groups of human beings. When they discard this bond for Nationalism, and Secularism, they in turn are reverting to a primative way of thought. The Laws of the Jungle, which no matter how you twist it, will lead to social darwanism, survival of the fittest. When they do this, they cause us the indigonous to stoop to their level and engage in the same primative behavior. They speach of Secular Progressive Arab Nations, to that I say. NEVER.
We are either all Muslims united in faith, we are equal, we are brothers and sisters, we marry from one another, we eat with one another, we live in harmoney with one another under gods divine guidance. Or we are two godless peoples, two diffrent races, in which the one of the peoples(the arabs) have invaded the lands of another peoples(the berbers), and are trying to subjagate them, destroy their culture, steal their wealth, ect....
Do you see what I am trying to communicate? Do you see from where I am coming from, do you understand whats going on in my head? I really dont know how to make it much clearer. To put a link to sandmonkies blog and to be a libyan arab, is more hurtful then you will ever know. Do I belive their are things horribly wrong with our part of the world? Yes I do. Do I belive Islam is the reason for this as sandmonkey asserts. ABSOLUTLY NOT. I belive Islam is the solution to all the worlds problems, I honestly in my heart of hearts do.
Thank you for your comment Lost Libyano
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