Saturday, July 23, 2005

On another sad note....

I retract my words about the non-hysterical behaviour of Londoners , while yes most Londoners did not go on a rampage , the police on the other hand have sadly shot at point blank someone who was running on the underground, well as I thought discussing this subject on Red_enclave's blog ( how intelligent are intelligence ?)this guy was plain frightened or just in a hurry to get on the train or plain cold coming from a warmer country. His ill luck was his colour which made him Asian i.e Paki to the London policemen... well gentlemen it seems you just murdered the wrong person and innocent bystander... and a tourist most probably it seems he is Brazilian according to the BBC article just mentioned above :( oh boy the terrorists are having such a laugh at us...

This has frightening repercussion , because that means that if you come from another climate and are not half naked in the cold British summer while you are visiting London you risk being suspect on the tube and even shot at point blank range by the police ...better restrict your travel till this dies out a little because you may not get the time to explain you are not a terrorist but only cold .... or in a hurry to catch a train...scary

31 comments:

removedalready said...

ANY TOM, DICK @ HARRY will be shot because of his tan skin. It is frustrating, to claim that Asian @ Arabs are responsible for the underground & bus bombs @ other forms of terrorism. I'd like them to recall the Oklahoma City incident. Who was the one responsible for the bombing of the FBI building? Non other than their own citizen a white man. Open your eyes America & Britain, not all whites are innocent & not all coloured people are evil!

AlanK said...

Highlander

Just finished posting on the same issue there

as for what happened, unfortunately it seems that circumstances lead the police to believe he was a suicide bomber and because he ran they shot him. hopefully this will prevent any more deaths of this nature

At the moment many people are very nervous as they fear that the terrorists will strike again as they were not killed in the attacks on july 22

FastNed said...

Something is off about this. We do not have the full story yet. He was followed from a building under observation, he was ordered to stop and ran, leaped over the turnstile and ran to the train with the police behind him, evidently yelling "STOP". He continued to run and jumped onto the train - at which point he fell and a police officer put five into his head. The ROE for the police in a terrorism matter were followed - he was thought to be a suicide bomber, his actions were identical to what such a bomber might do and the police put him down and out. Lesson to be learned: do not run away from the police in the midst of a terrorism alert - it could well be fatal. Think of it as evolution in action.

Highlander said...

I get your point Fastned, but a terrorist would not run , he would just pull the string or whatever and explode himself . No this guy is scared for his life, a terrorist seeks death and walks joyofully towards it not jumping over turnstiles, if he was a terrorist he would have effected a lot of damage with the police around him and the bystanders and not run from them !

removedalready said...

Highlander, I totally agree with you, a suicide bomber would gladly blow himself & the police up! If he fell, there were so many policemen, why couldn't they just grab him first then make a thorough body check!

aliandra said...

Highlander,

Not all terrorists are suicide bombers. The four men caught on British cameras were running away too. They did not blow themselves up. The fact that their pictures are plastered all over the TV and no one has turned them in yet, shows that segments of the Pakistani population in Britain are protecting them. They are aiding terrorists.

Red_enclave,

Rubbish. Muslim radicals were suspected to have bombed the Oklahoma building simply because they had carried out an attack on the World Trade Center two years prior.

Anonymous said...

I have to cast my vote with FastNed on this. The guy should not have run away from the police.

They are not to blame for this tragic mistake. Besides not all terrorists are of the same suicidal brand Highlander.

DM

Highlander said...

I agree he should not have run away, but I disagree that he was killed at point blank range, the witnesses all said the policeman was practically on top of him...what I disagree about also is that he was suspect because of his colour...Aliandra Pakistanis are the same colour as latinos more or less and darker than most Arabs ...Are you telling me that now your colour shows that you are an extremist Muslim?

Anonymous said...

We live in a country where we are not used to seeing guns....Any one seeing people chasing him with guns would just leg it....I know I would....the police were in plain clothes not in uniform...what do you expect the guy to do....stand around just because they said they were the police...anybody can say they are the police in such circumsatnce....do you wait until they turn out to be psychos on a killing rampage or just the police is a life and death situation.... And for the person who is saying that the police followed the rules....it is now emerging that eight bullets were fired and not five...the story keeps on changing all the time.... and also according to the "police rules" a suicide bomber is to be shot in the head at all and not in the body so that bombs would not be triggered...The guy got shot in the torso few times according to reports.... So why were the rules not followed?.... had not they been aware the bombs would have been set off if he is indeed a terrorist as they claimed he was at the time.... End of the day an innocent man was killed because someone wanted to make an example, but they got the wrong guy and it was simple cold blooded murder...and we are going to receive is some spineless investigations that would whitewash everything..( Butler and Abu Ghraib anyone?).

Redneck

Michael said...

Former London Police Chief John Stevens has said literally that the rule to deal with a suspected suicide terrorist is to "destroy his brain" since even a mortally wounded terrorist can still set off a bomb. So the most vital "body" part to be neutered is the brain.

If you see how ruthless the policeman followed that advice - 5 bullets in the brain - it only show that he was 200% CONVINCED Menendes was a suicide terrorist. Given the insanely stupid behaviour of the Brazilian, plus counting that the police officers were dead nervous with the second attack just the day before, I have every sympathy for the London Police.

It COULD have been a suicide terrorist. There COULD have been 5 more dead police officers. I wonder if in that case there would also have been a banner with "STOP THE KILLING" as there was now.

Michael/Belgium

tarhooni said...

It is simple. He ran away because he saw a group of men with guns chasing him and yelling at him. I would venture to guess that if the police were uniformed, he would not have run. The fact is they held him down to the ground and put 8 bullets to the back of his head. This is no better than the behavior of terrorists.

Highlander said...

Tarhooni and Redneck thanks for getting my point right !

Michael - If they were in uniform he would not run away, I would personally run if someone stuck a gun at me sorry :( hell I would even think that the person aiming a gun at me is a terrorist ..

.e!manie. said...

i think its disturbing that this has even become a normal issue to discuss - a theme of regular daily dialogue. more disturbing is that london police have 'apologized' but clearly stated that this won't be the last time, using this point and shoot mechanism as a preventative measure to avoid such attacks.

i hate to sound so damned cynical - but if we only used this same amount of energy to stop pissing people off in the world... maybe, just maybe....

last depressing thought:

this is 2005... and this is where we have found ourselves. its gut wrenching.

Michael said...

I hate to sound cynical too Highlander, but these were white males pointing guns and yelling.

In other words, they couldn't have been terrorists.

You have to face the sad fact that almost all terror acts committed today are by people with a light brown skin. Oh, there may still be the occasional petard by the ETA - for which they warn by phone 5 hours in advance.

Highlander, you obviously have some trouble with Euro racist attitudes. First, I am of the opinion that Europeans tend to be (much) more racist than Americans. I recall also your lengthy email in which you mentioned the racist slurs used by the French to describe North Africans.

While I do admit that this racist attitude has played a role in alienating young European Muslims and hence steering them on the path to approving terrorism, I do NOT think this is the main reason for them denouncing the West. After all, Muslim youth behead Thai Buddhist monks, and they are also tanned.

Face it Highlander: the MAIN problem lies in your religion, or whatever false interpretation of your religion. I can admit that horrible things happend in the name of Christ; why can't you do the same for your religion?

Michael/Belgium

Anonymous said...

Each side of this argument has part of the truth.
The poor Brazilian guy should not have run in these
Electrified events. He certainly made a fatal mistake.

The Police are not baby citters or university professors.
They are very rough people with license to kill and should
be treated with great care. I even hate to ask them for
street directions.

The police were implementing a policy of shoot to kill
Orders to curtail these horrific bombs. This policy may
Well be going too far. But the politicians feel they have to
Do something. I would hate to be in their shoes.

DM

highlander said...

Michael, the issue was not my religion but how scary things are if some one is allowed to kill you point blank. Michael we all know that terrorist are not gonna spare anybody's life , but we have not learned that a British policeman will kill you ..it gts scarier when you know that the guy is white , holds a pistol at you and has no uniform... nothing to show authority except the barrel of a gun ...it could have been any criminal ... the Brazilian guy made the wrong decision obviously ..it is the principle which counts Michael and herein lies the mistake , if the police as they say have been tailing this guy since he left his flat , why did they wait until he was in the underground to challenge him ? my attittude to Euro-racists has nothing to do with this. Still I always appreciate your visits Michael ..truely do as a friend ... and friends can disagree at times ;)

by the way talking of emails, I'm going to blog about my email that you posted once on your blog ok ?just as soon as I get some time, I know you will love it .

Michael said...

Naturally Highlander, me being a True European Rightwing Madman, I am NOT a racist myself, anymore than my conservative American friends on yonder side of the Atlantic are.

Why, just last week I had a good conversation with an amiable Moroccan man, a certain Mr. Boutchi, who lives here 35 years and who speaks fluent and accentless Dutch. Personally, I did not feel the slightest distance to this kind man and I think he felt the same. Of course, he was already some 55 years old and Arab males who reach that age often have those cool "I have seen it all" attitude, and a weary air that commands respect. I think it also has something to do with the hair. Arab men in their fifties often have cool silver hair (think the late Rafiq Hariri, may he rest in peace).

Now, if Europe is predominantly racist it is because it is also predominantly leftist. And everyone knows - or should know - that leftists are the real racists. We have seen a fine example of that in the Live 8 Fruitcake Festival by Sir Bob Geldof. Fucking losers who feel so proud they can play do-gooder to those poor African countries, while inside they look DOWN UPON those blacks. I, on the other hand, think African countries should fend more for themselves and held more accountable for their wrongdoings. In that way, they might regain their dignity. Help is ok, but it should not be the patronizing kind as we witnessed again during Live 8. But I digress.

Michael/Belgium

Michael said...

Hey!!!! You are online!!???

Michael said...

Highlander, thx.

I'm gone now. I'm looking forward to you posting that email.

May check in later this night, now I have some work to do. Online payments for starters. If you could see me, you would be watching a guy who will be a gazillion bucks lighter in a matter of minutes. Poor me. Bye.

highlander said...

hope you got those bills sorted out Michael...thanks for the comments...I know what you are reffering to. Re. that email I did not mean I will put it tonight ..oh no I need to work on the topic ;) lol that's very serious. But hopefully in a few weeks I just wanted to let you know in advance and see if it was ok with you as well . Thank you :)

KNL said...

I agree with Michael...it is sad but true.

Nouri

Anonymous said...

Michael
You have echoed the words of Tony Blair, that these actions are based on a perverted view of Islam. That is just fine, and it has enhanced my respect for the man for his diligence, High energy and pragmatism.

On the other hand, you went too far when you told Highlander that it was her religion that is at fault, like the way Christianity was at fault with many attrocities committed at its name.

I believe that you are off the track on both accounts my friend. Christianity is not to blame for ETA, the IRA or even the genocidal crimes of the fanatically religious Serbs at Serbernetia where they slaughtered 8000 Muslims in cold blood under the watchful eyes of your Dutch military regiment that was entrusted with protecting them.

Christianity is not to blame because we all know that its apostle preached “turning the other cheek” not killing and murder. It is the mentally retarded under civilized and sick Serbs who are to blame. The world was wise enough not to put the blame for the Serbian atrocities on their Christian faith.

It is also wrong to put the blame on Islam for these perverted terrorist bombers.
They are British born and raised kids who should be held accountable for their acts.
Its true they are Muslims. But I think that it was a perverted view of Islam, as Mr. Blair correctly put it, that may have caused them to do what they did. I say “May” because not a single shred of hard evidence has been presented so far for this case. Just media hype.

These thugs opened their eyes and absorbed a culture that is totally alien to their Islamic faith. They were raised in a western society with all of its ills & vices which include drug, alcohol, sex, violence, divorce and broken families.

A stupid London tabloid paper opened its wide mouth calling these guys BASTARDS
and telling them to GO TO HELL.

Well my friend they are genuinely 100% British bastards. I have read that more than 30% of the British people are not sure of who their real father is and if you don’t believe that just take a look at what that same tabloid revealed about the Windsor family itself.

DM

Michael said...

DM: I believe that you are off the track on both accounts my friend. Christianity is not to blame for ETA, the IRA or even the genocidal crimes of the fanatically religious Serbs at Serbernetia where they slaughtered 8000 Muslims in cold blood under the watchful eyes of your Dutch military regiment that was entrusted with protecting them.

Did I ever suggest that Christianity is to blame for what ETA or IRA did or do?

Look DM, I simply don't get it.

1° It is known that thousands of Mujahideen fought the Serbs in defence of their Bosnian co-Muslims. These thousands of Muslim Mujahideen MUST HAVE WITNESSED US JETS - A "CHRISTIAN" AIR FORCE, IF YOUY WANT - DESTROY SERBIAN POSITIONS, ALSO CHRISTIAN.

And then I have to learn that the Islamist clusterfuckers (mind you, I still said "Islamist" instead of "Islamic") obtained their explosives in all likelihood via Bosnian Muslims. All the while the West is trying to bring Karadzic and Mladic to court, and the biggest perpetrator od Srebrenica, Milosevic, is already in jail.

2° The "Christian" US supplied the Mujahideen and Osama, if you want, with weaponry to defeat the atheist USSR in Afghanistan. And what the Russians did to Afghan Muslims makes whatever US soldiers did in Iraq look like a picnic. Yet Osama chose to attack his erstwhile helper.

3° It was under the leadership of the United States that Kuwait, which in 1990 was certainly more Islamic than the "secular" Iraqi state of Saddam Hussein, was LIBERATED.

Kuwaitis suffered HEAVILY under the terror of Saddams troops. There was widespread looting, raping and killing. The US put an end to that. Has the US ever got credit for that from the Islamic World?

No. Not then, not now. Congratulations.

Michael/Belgium

Michael said...

DM: the fanatically religious Serbs at Serbernetia where they slaughtered 8000 Muslims in cold blood under the watchful eyes of your Dutch military regiment that was entrusted with protecting them.

First of all, I am not Dutch. I am Belgian. And since I am from the northern, Dutch-speaking part of Belgium, I am a FLEMING.

In my opinion, the Dutch contingent acted indeed in a shameful manner. I believe that the commander, a certain Karreveld, even was good friends with the Serbian commanders of the surrounding Serb troops.

That said, I would like to point out that the Dutch UN troops, which were hamstrung by insane UN Rules of Engagement (get killed first, then shoot back) finally withdrew slowly because Serbian tanks kept firing rounds just near
their positions.

There was one instance in which, as they retreated, Muslims threw a grenade at the Dutch soldiers. One soldier was killed. I can imagine that in that particular Dutch unit there was not much sympathy for the Muslims either.

However, it is difficult to be the judge, but I do think that when Serbian soldiers started massacrig Bosnian Muslims, the Dutch troops should have fought the Serbs.

Michael/Belgium

Michael said...

DM: They were raised in a western society with all of its ills & vices which include drug, alcohol, sex, violence, divorce and broken families.

I fail to see what's wrong with sex and alcohol as long as you don't exxaggerate with it. As for the former, while personally I am strongly in favour of true monogamous relationships, I think one cannot vilify people for an occasional misstep. As for violence, I think the Muslims world has not to teach us lessons. On drugs I agree with you, there should be zero tolerance, also for soft drugs. Divorce and broken families: in the West these problems are aggravated by the left, who effectively are trying to break the family down.

I do recognize the great merits of the Left in enhancing the living conditions of the worlig class and in extending democratic rights to the poor and to women. However, somewhere in the 60s the Left as a whole went off the deep end. All the troubles you mention there are caused or enhanced by permissive attitudes and an abandonment of our values as propagated by the Left.

A stupid London tabloid paper opened its wide mouth calling these guys BASTARDS
and telling them to GO TO HELL.


I fully agree with that tabloid. There was a neocommie chick in our leading newspaper who advocated that we in the West should listen to the Hussains and the Shehzads (by which she means those young suicide terrorists).

I don't want to listen to the Hussains and the Shehzads.

I just want to K-I-L-L them.

bob said...

Great post.

One thing that is missing from this discussion is an appreciation of the officers as ordinary decent people in this sad affair. An old friend of mine, who was very dark, Jamaican, and expat from Britain once told me that Brits "were the most tolerant people in the world". Having lived in the third world, in Britain, then in America, his statement carried a lot of weight with me.

So put yourselves in an officer's shoes. You get up in the morning, kiss your kids and your wife goodbye, head out into the streets, not to purposely bomb scores of innocents but to prevent it from happening. You also have a vested interest in living through the day and getting back at night alive to see those same loved ones you left in the morning.

London was obviously on very high alert and there is precious little time to make judgement calls in a heightened security situation. Indecision can cost you your life.

Look, I've been in three situations where guns held by people of authority have been pointed at me (don't ask, the situations were all circumstantial and somewhat ridiculous).
My inclination was to have some common sense: halt and do what they say. Certainly not run away.

bob said...

Great post.

One thing that is missing from this discussion is an appreciation of the officers as ordinary decent people in this sad affair. An old friend of mine, who was very dark, Jamaican, and expat from Britain once told me that Brits "were the most tolerant people in the world". Having lived in the third world, in Britain, then in America, his statement carried a lot of weight with me.

So put yourselves in an officer's shoes. You get up in the morning, kiss your kids and your wife goodbye, head out into the streets, not to purposely bomb scores of innocents but to prevent it from happening. You also have a vested interest in living through the day and getting back at night alive to see those same loved ones you left in the morning.

London was obviously on very high alert and there is precious little time to make judgement calls in a heightened security situation. Indecision can cost you your life. Putting on a uniform does not make you infallible or any less human.

Look, I've been in three situations where guns held by people of authority have been pointed at me (don't ask, the situations were all circumstantial and somewhat ridiculous).
My inclination was to have some common sense: halt and do what they say. Certainly not run away.

tarhooni said...

Michael, you said "I hate to sound cynical too Highlander, but these were white males pointing guns and yelling. In other words, they couldn't have been terrorists".

Are you kidding???

First of all, are you claiming that the London police force is made up of white people only? How do you know the police were all white?

Second of all, assuming your point is correct and there are no white terrorists (I can name many for you if you wish), but let us assume your point; could it be that he thought these white non-terrorists were criminals? Maybe they were out to mug someone? I hope you will not claim that there are no white criminals.

Lastly, what is a terrorist, and what is a criminal? I can argue that they are the same thing. Therefore, when a white French Male rapes a 6 month old baby, he is a terrorist in my mind. BBC News Article

I think you have done a huge disservice to yourself by raising the issue of race. It shows the utter lack of understanding that you have about Islam and Muslims. Not all Muslims are brown, and not all brown people are Muslim. There are White, Chinese, Black, and Asian muslims. Please, do not try to hide any prejudices you have by neatly wrapping them in what you think are sound arguments, we can see through the wrapper.

Louise said...

Can someone give me a link that shows the police were not in uniform? And while you are at it, how about one that shows conclusively whether they were caucasion or not. Or are we all letting a whole bunch of other unresolved personal issues and ideologies cloud our analysis here.

I think the police did what they had to do and the guy should not have run. However, if the police were not in uniform perhaps there is reason for the man to flee. Or maybe he was just a common criminal in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe he was among the throngs of the mentally ill who roam the public spaces and are often dressed "inappropriately" and behave strangely.

It seems to me a lot of people are jumping to conclusions and doing a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking, when we really don't know the full story.

programmer craig said...

Red Enclave, I agree with you in spirit, but I think you go too far. People react differently to bad situations. And racism exists everywhere, to one degree or another. Allow me to give a few examples, as a white guy who was married to an asian with tan skin for 10 years, who lives in Southern California, where whites are the minority. I'm going to use examples of Arabs, though, not asians, OK?

I used to stop at a Seven Eleven every day on the way to work to get coffee and a donut. This store was run by a family of Arabs. I never asked what country they were from, so I don't know that. Anyway, I used to always spend a minute or two talking to whoever was behind the counter that day. I liked them, and I still do. But, after September 11th, everything changed. I recieved very brief replies whenever I said anything, and they seemed very nervous all the time. I guess they had been having some bad experiences with customers, but I felt kind of pissed off that they would take it out on me. Now, that same family is still theer, and everything is pretty much back to normal with them.

Recently, new people have started working in this store. I think they had some family members immigrate to teh US from somewhere. They don't speak much English, but they are all very friendly and outgoing. One girl who I think is about 20, named Asmaa (does that indicate where she comes from in any way?) is the sweetest and friendliest cashier I've ever encountered in my live. I don't see how anyone could be mean to her, and I doubt anybody is.

On the other hand, I got my hair cut last week by an Iraqi woman who is probably about 50 and with a permanent scowl on her face. She looked so angry every time I saw her in the mirror, I was really starting to worry that she might cut my throat with her scissors, and I don't intend to get me hair cut at that establishment again!

My last example is the gym I go to. It's about 50% Iranian - there are a LOT of Iranians in my area. The guy I work out with was disharged from the US Marines a couple months ago. He was in Afghanistan twice and in Iraq twice. He was in the 5th Marine Regiment, which was the leading element going into Falluja last November, and the last place he was stationed at was Ramadi. He speaks some Arabic and some Farsi - he learned the Faris in Afghanistan, which I was surprised about because I thought Farsi was exclusively Iranian. He's Mexican. Anyway, the point is, at the gym he is always chatting with the Iranians (especially the girls!) in Faris, and I'm amazed at how well they respond to him. I've worked with a lot of Iranians and never gotten along with them particularly well. Maybe, because I didn't make the effort. I don't know. Maybe I expected that they wouldn't like Americans so I just didn't try.

In any case, what I'm trying to say is - sometimes, you get the kind of treatment you expect to get, like something about your attitude or your bearing draws a particular good or bad reaction from people. And sometimes you get the same treatment you give. And sometimes, it really *is* racism. And, most of the time, it's hard to tell what's really going on with people :\

Anonymous said...

well well well:
[The latest documents suggest Mr de Menezes had walked into Stockwell Tube station, picked up a free newspaper, walked through ticket barriers, had started to run when he saw a train arriving and was sitting down in a train when he was shot.]- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4157892.stm