Saturday, May 27, 2006


The one who loves me vs the one I love -UPDATED AGAIN

This month several blogger friends were dissecting the pressure they are made to feel to get married after a certain age , Nura for example was wondering if men were running out :) and in the process she says :




"Why is it that a girl can't just say NO I AM NOT INTERESTED when she is
introduced to someone she does not necessarily feel chemistry with?"

Redenclave had picked up on the topic as well and seems to be in the same dilemna as everyone is trying to set her up and bombarding her with questions, she says :




"Personally, I've had enough of playing the guessing game. It's a waste of
money & not worth the time. I may seem cold. But some guys are damn
desperate".
Smokeyspice was in the same hot spot exactly a year ago , her account of what happened and her impression are pretty comical yet all absolutely true :




"In itself, reaching 28 would not be an issue...were I not ALSO Libyan,
Muslim, and unmarried. While none of these particular facts of my life have
alarmed me, they seem to be the source of much nervous tension in my
family".

I'm sure this will in no end please my readers who were hoping for some matchmaking :) Here's your chance NBA: carpe diem .
Now this brings us to a vital question regarding marriage/partnership /concubinage ( to be politically correct with those who don't believe in it).

So you are a young woman of a certain age ( or maybe that does not matter anyway either), sooner or later one or several men will be thrown your way , whether by luck, fate, prior arrangement, accident or maybe " it's raining men". In all cases you are faced with a choice that will shape your life - what do you ? well read on to find out . But before you do check this :

* Disclaimer: it is not the intention of the author to offend the canine creatures and certainly not the male gender. OK you can proceed to the post now .


My Libyan girlfriends tell me, “Highlander, always remember to choose the man who loves you more, not the man YOU love more”!

So what’s the theory behind this sweeping statement ? Well…..According to these ladies , “ALL men are dogs”. That’s pretty tough eh ?
Like you, I was puzzled at first when I heard it but over the years and from my observations I’ve concluded that there might be a grain of truth somewhere in this theory at least in relation to Libyan guys, let me clarify .

Apparently if you demonstrate to men love and affection they will think poorly of you and in the process break your heart ; because they might play at Romeo and Juliette with you but when it is time to settle down, it is going to be with someone either their mum has chosen or some girl they imagine has not been in love before [read is not promiscuous. Because take this … . If you show your love, you become in their eyes a woman of loose morals and an easy lay. Yep the less grave situation is that men would simply take you for granted and therefore you become a doormat . Libyan men prefer chasing a woman who will keep them guessing. A woman who will not put their mind at rest and show them how much she cares. Nope they would they would rather pine for her instead of enjoying mutual feelings of love . Isn’t that sadistic and plain crazy. Why do we like to torture ourselves, what happened to plain loving each other and being proud of it ?

I don’t think this theory applies to 'all' Libyan men, and certainly not to ALL men, because I have seen a lot of happy couples. But I’m wondering what criteria to apply when it comes my turn to choose ?

(1) He loves me and will take care of me forever ‘till death do us part’ , it’s an ideal situation as he will provide me with everything…but I only feel a sense of friendship and content with him.
(2) I love him to distraction and we always have a great time together but he keeps making excuses not to tie the knot…
(3) I feel/know he loves me ( but he has not specifically said it) and I love him too but I’m holding out before blurting it because of some stupid rule which says that the man should declare his love to you first

Is it the same all over the world ? Why are the simplest emotions turned into a melodrama? What would you do? accept the one who loves you and have peace of mind but no ‘umph’ in the relationship, insist on the one you love and risk have him drop you when he wants to settle down thus wasting the best years of your life ? Or wait for the perfect match the one who will be lover, friend and brother in brief the soulmate , no matter how long it takes- and then it won’t matter who says what to whom first, because from his voice or glance you would simply know. The only disadvantage with the third choice is sometimes having to wait a lifetime. Do you want to wait a lifetime for that chance at true love ?


Side note : PS I don’t know why telling someone is a dog is considered offensive in our culture maybe because it is equivalent to saying ‘she is a bitch’..

UPDATE- according to the 2006 Libyan census it looks like 'men outnumber women 102.6 to 100' which means that - no Libyan men are not running out ...yay plenty of fish ....

Update no. 2 7/6/2006: Apparently even Soad is having wedding blues

51 comments:

Adam said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Adam said...

canine or not, those dilemmas you raise seem frighteningly familiar; dreaming of the ultimate umph while time flies by: (1) those rare ones who give me da umphs rarely reflect such sentiments (2) those that get the umphs from me likewise seldom raise the same fever in my bloodstream (3) and those uncomplicated, lovely, gentle, warm-hearted angels that I wish could give me that fever just do not; just makes me wonder if I am wisely biding my time, or foolishly chasing rainbows...

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

Well I am not a Dog. I can't speak for the rest, but I understand your slight Anti-Man sentiments. I personally do not see women who show affection as being "loose". Every girl is someone's Daughter, or Sister, or Cousin, so I find it disgusting and mean spirited to brand a girl as a "Easy Lay', "Slut", "Whore", ect... As far as Blurting out the L word, I personally wouldn't find myself doing it,primarly because of fears of rejection and heartbreak. I find it very hard to speak to girls for this reason, I sit quite until they speak to me and when they speak I keep my eyes to the floor and keep my tone low until I feel comfortable. I know its not the most MANLY thing to do, but chicks need to realize that guys have feelings too. So I persoanlly hope the right girl makes the move first because I know I am too Chicken Shit to utter a word. I could be on a abandoned far away Island and only me and a girl their and I wont say a word to her until she speaks to me, no matter how long we have been their.

programmer craig said...

Off topic: Argghhh! Phone service was out for 3 hours earlier today, and then it comes back on, 5 minutes later, the power goes out for an hour. What, did I wake up in Baghdad this morning!? I'm going to start a militia to drive the evil Verizon out of Southern California.

Hmmmppphhh. Anyway. Libyan Warrior, I actually agree with most of what you wrote, for once. I take a similar approach to women, though maybe for different reasons. If you always wait for women to make the first move, you may be waiting a long time. Depends on how much they like you I guess. I used to chase women when I was younger, but the women I attracted that way weren't the women I wanted. This is a very complicated issue I guess :)

Highlander,

“ALL men are dogs”

You're not going to get me to co-sign that one, but I'd go with "SOME men are dogs" at least :)

MY DISCLAIMER: I'm not trying to be romantic, supportive, or anything else in this comment, I'm trying to be honest.

Apparently if you demonstrate to men love and affection they will think poorly of you and in the process break your heart

I don't think that's quite right. I think the problem is that men pursue women they aren't necessarily (romantically)interested in. And in the process, they sometimes say/do things they don't really mean. I don't know if there's a way to tell when a guy is really sincere and when he's just "playing the game." Some guys play this game pretty well.

Another observation, by the way... the guys who use women a lot seem to be the guys that women are the most attracted to. And they aren't always good looking. So, I don't think it's quite fair to blame the entire male half of the species for what the horny dogs do. They learned their trade from women, not from men :)

because they might play at Romeo and Juliette with you but when it is time to settle down, it is going to be with someone either their mum has chosen or some girl they imagine has not been in love before [read is not promiscuous.

I don't agree with this part. I don't think it applies to my culture. It's not whether or not women are "experienced" (how about that instead of promiscuous?) it's whether or not a guy trusts her to be faithful to him. I'm not quite sure how this calculation gets made by guys, even though I've made it for myself a few times. Maybe it's just a "gut feeling" they get. No guy I ever met would marry a woman he didn't trust in this regard. So, it's a big issue... but maybe it's not quite the way you describe it. At least for western guys.

Libyan men prefer chasing a woman who will keep them guessing.

Well... lots of women like these kinds of games too.

A woman who will not put their mind at rest and show them how much she cares.

Ok, this part I completely disagree with. What kind of guy wants to marry a woman who is that cold and uncaring? What kind of marriage would that be!?

Nope they would they would rather pine for her instead of enjoying mutual feelings of love . Isn’t that sadistic and plain crazy.

Ah. You're describing obsession now. Very unhealthy. I was in that kind of realtionship once. And once was enough! I don't even want to talk about this, except to say that I don't consider obsession to be love.

I don’t think this theory applies to 'all' Libyan men, and certainly not to ALL men, because I have seen a lot of happy couples. But I’m wondering what criteria to apply when it comes my turn to choose ?

I don't think you get to choose, love just happens :)

I commented enough for now, I think. Very good post though, Highlander. It's interesting (for me) to see this from a woman's perspective, but especially from an arab muslim woman's perspective.

Twosret said...

I couldn't finish reading the post after "all men are dogs" I'm laughing so hard and can't take you seriously anymore LOL

ontripoli said...

Knowing the purpose behind the action would help, it is very true that people create images of what they think is the right way to approach, over all if you donot make your self available to dogs, dogs won't see you and eventually no barking and no biting can occur being a doughter of a dog is another matter. Finall word is, it takes two to Tango.

NBA said...

A very interesting post, Highlander. Thanks for it.

Myself, I've stopped understanding women a long time ago. Occasionally, however, I still have some hope left for them. From my perspective, they usually pick up the wrong guys and show nothing but contempt for those of us who actually like them and don't want to use them for whatever purposes.

Yeah, from the tone you might sense I recently heard the girl I've loved more than anyone but who's been little more than a dream for a long time now due to us living in different countries has someone else. To avoid Highlander censoring the rest, I'm not adding here what I'm thinking at the moment. Would include a couple of naughty words anyway.

Last but not least, I'd personally prefer being a hot dog to just a dog.

NBA

Twosret said...

NBA,

I hereby announce that you are the hottest hot dog alive lol

NBA said...

Twosret, I should print your comment and have it framed on my wall as the greatest compliment ever told of me in my life ;-).

NBA

programmer craig said...

NBA,

From my perspective, they usually pick up the wrong guys and show nothing but contempt for those of us who actually like them and don't want to use them for whatever purposes.

I'm with you on that! Look at any group of 4 or 5 guys hanging out together. One of them is probably a womanizer (he's the one the other guys think is cool, because he gets all the women) and the rest aren't.

Then watch em go into a nightclub. All the hot women will be ignoring the pathtic but sincere attmpts by the regulr guys, and they'll be throwing themselves at the guy who won't even remember their name a day later. Seen it a million times, it seems like.

But remember, it's always the guys fault. Very important :P

removedalready said...

Sometimes women just can't resist a hot guy. But would she want one by her side for the rest of her life time? Maybe not! ;P

What do men think of women? Do they go after the sweet young things? Hot gorgeous women? Or it's all based on their personality & character?

This question is for the men:Would they still love / want you if you are much more academically qualified than them? I'm naot saying that all men or majority of them would prefer women who are less brainier than them vice versa. Lets face it, it's the real world.

Women: Do you choose a man based on his looks / love @ his ability to support you? For me, that would be the last one, able to support me emotionally & financially. Of course looks is important but as long as he is nice to look at, that's good enough. It's not as if I'm gorgeous or what!

to answer Highlander's Q: I don't mind waiting for the right match. I don't think I'll regret it. It's better late & it's never too late. If you're destined to meet your soulmate, good for ya! But if you're not, don't despair, live life to the fullest. You'll get to share it woth other people! Look at the bright side, marriage isn't everything. It's the path you have chosen which will lead you to where you'd be. Remember the poem "The Road Not Taken - Robert Frost".

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

redENCLAVE: I will try to answer your question but I dont know if I have enough years on me.

1. I personally have to go after the young ones cause I am a young person myslef. But I would say personality & character is
60-70% of the equation. I cant answer number 2 because I dont know any girls with anything more than a High School diploma. But Personality most definatly is the MOST IMPORTANT THING. Looks are nice, but looks are skin deep. If a girl is hot then its most definatly a Plus, but what I look for is a girl who makes a good conversational peice.

programmer craig said...

Hi RE,

I like smart women. The smarter the better. As long as they don't rub it in too much when they're right and I'm wrong, I guess :)

I'm not sure about academic achievements. My ex-wife has more formal education than I do (and she's a very smart lady too) but she didn't care at all about politics or most of the other things that I spend so much time "pondering" so we still had trouble coming up with things to talk about. It may be a cultural stereotype (she's Chinese) but she really enjoyed talking about the stock market, how our investments were doing, etc. Things that I've never cared much about. I'm terrible with money, and that's one of the things I always valued about her...

So, I guess I'd say brains are very important to me, but common interests are very important too.

When I was young, I just cared about looks. That's all. I mean when I was less than about 25. But I wasn't looking for a serious relationship then, either.

On the age... hmmm... I met my ex when I was 27. She was 29. I don't think age mattered to me at all back then, either younger or older. The weird thing is, now that I'm single again (and older), it does. Now I think in terms of an "appropriate" age range for myself.

Lybianwarrior,

1. I personally have to go after the young ones cause I am a young person myslef.

Don't sell the older women short, man. At your age, an older woman could really do you some good, if you can find one :)

NBA said...

Redenclave wrote:

What do men think of women? Do they go after the sweet young things? Hot gorgeous women? Or it's all based on their personality & character?

This question is for the men:Would they still love / want you if you are much more academically qualified than them? I'm naot saying that all men or majority of them would prefer women who are less brainier than them vice versa. Lets face it, it's the real world.


Well, once again I can only reply from my part and not generalize even on single Western men LOL. Of course looks do matter and I believe everyone who publicly announces the contrary is deceiving him/herself at the very least. But the point is that even though any normal man (whatever that now is...) enjoys watching sweet, gorgeous, hot etc. women it's also so that what good looks are is based on individual choices and matters of taste. Some women I know personally or who are celebrities and are known for their beauty I simply don't care about while I think some of the girls I know myself who don't universally seen fall into the category of hot, sweet, gorgeous are such in my own taste. This is akin to someone's taste of good music, good reading, good pastime etc. I sometimes find weird things great and generally liked things simply boring (like, I never really understood why on Earth The Da Vinci Code is so popular, it's a horrible book).

So, looks matter, for sure, but in my case good looks based on my perosnal taste which in my long experience of woman watching ;-) is not really clearly defined. Heck, except for 2-3 criteria the women whose looks I've admired in my life there's no logic here, meaning I couldn't really reply to such superficial questions as whether I prefer blondes or brunettes or blue eyes or black eyes.

And brainy women rule until they start thinking too much of themselves and their brains ;-). To add to brains it's also, like Craig wrote, common interests that matter and they really do matter. What do you do with an intelligent woman if she can't use her intelligence discussing with you because there's no common topic to discuss (such as the Muhammad cartoons or matchmaking with Arab girls LOL)..?

NBA

Miryan AlEtawish Navarro said...

Salaam wa Rahmatullah,

I find a little bit of split personality in Libyan men. I myself am not Libyan - I am from Malta - but my dear husband is Libyan. I work outside the home, and, yes, we use my salary for a more comfortable lifestyle for the family (me, DH and little Baby Ameenah). My husband helps me A LOT around the house - and sees no problem in it - it is OUR house and we are both responsible for it.
At the same time, when we visit his Mother, he sits in the Mirbugha and expects his younger sisters to do everything for him "Aicha - sandriya!" "Fatmah, gahwa!" etc etc etc. to be honest now i don't like visiting his parents because of how he behaves around his sisters.

As to the issue of getting married! Ayayayayay!!!! Take your time girls! I was born and raised a catholic, and converted to Islam when I was 25. OHHhhhhhh!!!! On my second visit to Salaat ul Jummuah ALL the mothers were waiting for me with photos of their sons, and presents for me like bracelets and abayaas, hoping I will quickly marry their son. In the end I married the man I really really really loved and felt 100% loved by and I do not regret it - except when he drives in Malta after a long time in Tripoli and gets many fines to pay. Hehe.

Highlander said...

Adam hi, glad to see you back commenting , you've summed up the human condition dilemna ...we are never satisfied it seems.

Libyanwarrior, did I come accross as anti- man to you uhoh . you've said it right , 'every girl is someone's daughter' etc. what I was worried about is happened is that the girl is branded as promiscious ( with all the implications) even though all she did was show her love to the man verbally and nothing else. For example she did not hold hands, kiss, or sleep with the guy, but the mere facts that she let her expression show happiness or that she initiated phone calls and not just replied to see his phone call, or that she planned for the future when they will be 'toghether' may be considered by some extreme guys that she was easy - is that not weird ? I'm surprised that you turned out to be the shy type - did not expect from the way you act on blog ;). As for the abandoned Island my friend , believe me you will eventually speak to her as your hormones will take over .

Programmer Craig , sorry to hear about your telephone problems, for us in the ME ( and I speak for myself) it feels strange to hear that phones and other things can go wrong in America, we assume wrongly that the services are perfect.

I guess my 'all men are dogs' statement was too much , but I did explain that it was my friend and not I who said it ;)
I think my comment re. the man breaking a girl's heart when she shows him that she really cares are mostly aimied at your local breed of Libyan guys, I'm not much aware of how things are in the US, but thanks for explaining about those that are 'playing the game' . Being 'experienced' in my culture and admitting it dramatically reduces your chances of marital bliss . But I agree with you, it all boils down on trust, the Libyan man does not seem to trust and might interpret a friendly gesture towards another man in the process of an ordinary plain conversation as an indication that the women intends to sleep with that guy if she has not already done. I'm serious that's how many of the guys are here. So the burden lies on women to actually find the proper balance between having a boyfriend ( not necessarily involving sex) and letting this boyfriend think of her as marriage material and leading him to the altar. Very very hard and involves a lot of juggling. Funnily enough the Libyan guys do not apply these rules when dating a non- Libyan I've seen and are miraculoulsy transformed into the summum of romanticiness ( no idea if this word exists ).BUT as soon as they marry the foreign woman , some of them revert to being their usual chanvinist selves.
To answer your question What kind of guy wants to marry a woman who is that cold and uncaring? What kind of marriage would that be!? I would say he would marry her because she is a trophy , then she has replied to his advances so he knows she likes him, he does not really care that she loves him, and she can tell him that she loves him a respectful time after marriage .Of course this is unrelated to Islam.
I'll share an anecdote, I once had a friend divorced on her wedding night by the love of her life who was dating her for seven years.Do you know what she did wrong ? she got up and hugged him and actually demonstrated physical affection at last after being legally married to him - and in the guys dirty mind her initiative meant she had already been with a man , what a loser eh ?

Twosret darling , you disapear for months on end and then you breeze through, please don't go away this time.

Ontime , welcome to the blogosphere , you seem to be new here . I had a look at your blog and I find your writing excellent, i hope you keep on blogging and don't disapear like many of our libyan bloggers who start to be promising and then we never hear from them anymore.

As for your statement I don't know what you mean, I was not talking about the women who deliberately choose to 'Tango' as you put with men. I was speaking of those who were sincere in their FEELINGS and did not hide it . Feelings of love is different from physical promiscuity.


Ah NBA I knew you would like this post . you say Occasionally, however, I still have some hope left for them now what's that supposed to mean? are women totally nitwits ;) ? But you're right some girls simply cannot differentiate between good prospective love material and a 'user' .
I'm so sorry to hear that your girlfriend has left you. It takes a lot of determination and self sacrifice to mane a distance relationship work until you can be toghether. So count your blessings and think of it this, if she has not been able to keep to her side of the burden and be faithful while you are away from each other while you are still not even married, then how would you have felt a few years down your marriage , and maybe with one or two kids and you have to go on a business trip for a few months or weeks and she 'sees' someone else? These attitudes are built in the personally and how the girl was raised , background home etc... That is why people asked about a future bride or groom ( in our culture) to find out what kind of 'soil' raised her :) if I may say so.
So now think of it as a blessing you can start making all your grand plans about actually meeting a wonderful Arab woman . Twosret just complimented you , so that means you may have a chance ..

Redenclave I like your attitude and the questions you put out, I surprised that no everyone chickened out and some people have actually replied :)

Women: Do you choose a man based on his looks / love @ his ability to support you?

hmm good question, of course any woman would tell you that you want the man who will support you not only financialy but also morally and emotionally .As in he should be there at all the important stages of your life toghether and will know when to strike a balance between home and work . Of course if you find him attractive on top of that it would be a bonus. But the criteria for handsome vary widely. Thank God that tastes differ otherwise we would have a problem :)

I was impressed by Libyan warrior's answer to you despite his youth.

while Programmer Craig now what is that supposed to mean :) ?
like smart women. The smarter the better. As long as they don't rub it in too much when they're right and I'm wrong, I guess :) ... that they have to be diplomatic about being smart ?
i agree with you that common interests are a very important bond, because when the physical novelty wears away and when one gets old it is these things which keep the flame going ( in addition to Love of course ).

With regards as to how yo behaved under the age of 25, well I must say 99% of men have sowed wild oats ( there is a tiny % age of have held out they exist ) , so that's normal then men change and want to settle down. The problem in my culture is the women who have sowed their own oats or who are perceived to have done so. There is a double standard here which I don't like.

Salam Myrian, thank you for coming to my blog :) I've touched on the 'split personality' thing a bit with the Libyan men above . Good for you that you married your love. As I said and will keep saying Libyan men are strange creatures and someones you don't know which way to hold them to understand them :) ..maybe you should take up a blog , you write so well yourself. By the way how did you find my blog ?

Maya M said...

Of course "certain age" matters, because most people want to have children, and fertility declines with age. When postponing indefinitely a thing that depends on biology, what are we actually thinking, that laws of Nature are not valid for us? We are just poor mortal creatures, not gods.
I think that Libyan friends of Highlander are absolutely right. If a relationship is to survive, then the feelings of the man towards the woman are more important. I'll try to explain, although the comment will become awfully long.
When reading what female Arab and esp. Arab-Western bloggers write, I just pity the Arab men. I know they have many defects, but should they be left alone? Somebody has to marry these poor guys as well :). To comfort Highlander - some of the defects of Libyan men are surely common for all men, while some are not found in Western men, but Western men have their own specific defects, the most serious of which is their unwillingness to marry. It is men who "don't believe" in marriage, saying shit like "We love each other so much, what will a damn signature change?", to which the correct answer is of course, "If a damn signature would change nothing, why the hell don't you just put it down?". All men are to some degree spoiled by the male-dominated society and culture, by their parents, esp. MOTHERS, and by the fact that Nature is more merciful to men and gives them more time, which makes women "pressed" for marriage and leads to the impression of "men running out". However, it is not male defects that make the man's feelings more important, but rather the crucial role of the woman in the family.
Guys will call me sexist, but it is the woman who is Parent No. 1. She makes the house a home, the man is always some kind of a guest in his own house. She sacrifices her talents for the family and keeps it together. If she chooses a man who is really attracted by her, he is more likely to have a long and happy life with her, to tolerate her flaws and to care for their children. If she, to satisfy her feelings, chooses a man who doesn't value her so much and "just agrees", he can at any moment feel bored by her and say goodbye. Which responsible woman will make her children hostages to her feelings, if she has another choice?
Besides, what kind of feeling is what we call love between a man and a woman? A hormonal storm, a fever in the bloodstream, as Adam called it. It is blind and irresponsible. My friend says people always must wait their "falling in love" to pass before they marry, or they can make a terribly wrong choice. If you look retrospectively at people you've fallen in love previously - most of them were bad matches, weren't they? The right feeling between man and woman is rather what people call "friendship and content", while true friendship between heterosexual man and woman, as I wrote before, is unlikely to exist.
BTW there is nothing wrong for a woman to show that she likes a man (in fact, as LibyanWarrior admitted, men fear rejection so much that rarely pay attention to a woman who has given no sign to them). But to avoid being percepted as "easy" or persisting, the woman must follow a very complex ritual including elements of the particular culture as well as cues from our distant animal past - often a near-impossible task. Anyway, the man either loves her or not. If he says he does but "keeps making excuses not to tie the knot", it is the woman who must say "let's marry or bye-bye, I haven't a lifetime to lose". The same holds true if he seems to love her but doesn't say it. The "stupid rule" that the man is to propose seems to be present in all cultures and, as far as I know, everywhere tolerates exceptions.
I would recommend to no one waiting for the "perfect match". Most likely this would be a character not existing and unable to exist in the real world. Besides, is it even honest to agree only on a perfect man, when we women are also far from perfect? Well, perhaps every girl needs some years to fly in the sky, but the late 20s seem a good time to land among the fellow flawed human beings.

NBA said...

Very interesting ideas and opinions here, indeed. I remember a bit similar topics were some weeks ago discussed on Roba's blog as well, mostly regarding men's (dis)liking (if any) of intelligent women.

Well, Highlander, thanks for the blessings... Not that dramatic. This special someone was never my girlfriend, just a very special girl with whom I've really never been able to think seriously of any long-term plans due to the distance. And no, she is a most sweet creature and never cheated me as far as I know and wouldn't imagine her doing so. Ever. And neither did I cheat on her as I think in my own life faithlessless would be disgusting (with no double standards involved, a faithless man is no better than a faithless woman). Or depends. If we regard posting on a blog the idea of Highlander starting an Arab girl dating service for me as faithlessness, then I'm a cheater LOL.

Ah, I hate double standards, and Highlander's anecdote of divorce on the wedding day is simply incredible. How stupid can some men be? Hugging your newlywed husband a proof of a loose premarital life? Needless to say more.

Highlander, you BTW mentioned the altar thing in your comment. Never seen a Muslim wedding (just part of a Muslim wedding party with dancing etc.), how does it go?

LOL @ the idea of LybianWarrior on an island with his hormones, shyness and a girl. Would make a great reality tv series hehehehe.

NBA

Leilouta said...

Younger I "thought" I was in love once, therefore I've never said " I love you" to the few guys I went out with a few times.
A boyfriend once looked at me in the eyes, and said that he loved me. I wasn't even paying attention to him and answered, "oh... thank you" :)

Programmer Craig,
Add this to your list :
Dog = كلب (meaning bitch...)
Monkey = قرد ( ugly)
Pig = حلوف ( smart ass)

programmer craig said...

Leilouta, thanks! I really am making a list! Now I have those plus Donkey, Cow, Idiot, Kafir the sunbrurn one and... hmmm... a bunch of things I won't say in English :D

Miryan, Do you say that "Ayayayayay!!!!" Spanish style? I could almost hear it that way when you said it! Cute :)

Maya,

It is the woman who must say "let's marry or bye-bye, I haven't a lifetime to lose".

That's what happened to me :o

I'm very impressed with all the input in this thread. I'm starting to think all men are dogs, though :(

Suliman said...

It always boggles my mind when Muslim girls/women talk about premarital love. There is no room for that in Islam-period! Anyway, it is all a personal matter and I have no problem wih consenting adults doing what they please. But the topic kind of reminds of a joke that goes like this:

Three guys, A doctor, a lawyer and a physicist are discussing monogomy vs. polygamy, or having a wife vs. a wife and a mistress, which is better?

Doctor: Of course it is better to be monogomous, with much lower health risk, etc.

Lawyer: Yes, stick with one. Your legal expenses would be lower.

Physicist: No, it is better to have two. That way, when you're not with this one, she thinks you're with that one. And when you're not with that one, she thinks you're with this one. When you're really in the lab!

Go with the physicist's logic, find the "lab," and the rest will fall in place.

Highlander said...

Hi Maya , many women are marrying these Arab men ( including non-Arab women) with all their defects, apparently because Arab men are quite 'hot'=> ( no offense on non-Arab guys by the way as I have no way of comparing ;) ).

From my conversation with a lot of European friends they all complaining about this unwillingness to marry as well that you mentioned. My best friend actually went and proposed to her boyfriend, and he had the guts to say I'll think about it ;)

I agree with you Maya that the woman is the one which makes the house a home and a haven yes . As for the ultimatum it is a double edged sword but at least the woman has her answer :)

NBA don't give ideas to Libyan Warrior or he will start that TV series ;)
I'm glad to hear that your story did not contain anything dramatic and it was I who made a moutain out of it. As for the example of divorce on the wedding night that was to show you how extreme people can be.

Leilouta you always have the funniest answers , by the way what is this list you have been compiling you and Programmer Craig ;) curse words in Arabic? => may be a novel way to learn the language I guess :)

Programmer Craig :) u-hoh let not this overwhelming show of women affect you ....

Suliman hi :) , I always like it when you show up as you add a twist to the discussion from a totally different angle ;)
So I was wondering why do you say there is no premarital love in Islam ? If you had said sex I would have agreed and like you I do not judge consenting adults. However, I believe that love can exist before marriage and that it can also not necessarily end in marriage. Plus there is platonic love too ;)

What I was discussing was people who were in some kind of relationship, not necessarily sexual but at least it does involve dating and being perceived as a couple by their peers. Hmm I understand that we Arabs/Muslim have to walk around a lot of justifications but humans will be humans ;) . Unless I'm totally kidding myself about Love ...*sigh*

Anyway I was recently reading this book by John T. Molloy : "Why men marry some women and not others " which I picked up as light reading at the airport and it seems the guy concludes as said by one of the reviewers here that most men still choose mates based upon qualities that signaled the perfect bride in the Edwardian era: virtue, respectability and accomplishment. I think all men agree on that be they Western all ME.


Still I love your lab story , maybe the women too should get themselves a 'lab' :)

programmer craig said...

Hi again, H :)

However, I believe that love can exist before marriage and that it can also not necessarily end in marriage.

Same. Marriage is not even something I would consider, if I wasn't in love. I realize some people marry for other reasons, but not me!

NBA said...

Highlander, when/if you get married yourself, will you invite all of your most active readers to the wedding feast in Libya :-)?

Would like to know which visa category would be applied then LOL.

NBA

Trabilsia said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Trabilsia said...

When it comes to Libyan men,young or old, you've met one you've met them all !
They only change (positive), when living abroad. Once back home, everythingchanges and they are no longer the same men we thought we knew ! !
Now other men (nationalities )differ !Even other Arabs are more understanding than Libyans!!
Take it or leave it, but it's a proven fact !!

Maya M said...

With the first 2 lines of his comment, Suliman managed to kill all the fish. "There is no room for premarital love in Islam!" Tell me a religion in which there IS room for it! All religions I know are alike, sacrificing Eros to Thanatos and robbing humans of every joy other than being perfect slaves of God. As said Hristo Botev, a 19th century Bulgarian revolutionary and a passionate atheist despite carrying Christ's name, "Clerics tell you that, in order to be happy when you no longer exist, you must live like a slave, work like a machine and give them what you earn, so that they could enjoy the fruits of your labour."

Hannu said...

For what it's worth, here's my input. Dear Highlander, how could you call Libyan men dogs? Dogs! Shame on you :)

It takes more than love to have a good marriage. So be ware, love in itself is not enough, though an important ingredient and a must!

There's no need to stereotype here. Libyan men come in every color and shape, yep. All the Libyan men in my life look and behave differently, and I love them all!

Trabilsia, I don't agree with you. Men of other nationalities are not different to Libyan men. They all tend to be different when back in their own environments, even Europeans and Americans. And I strongly disagree that other Arab men are more understanding than Libyans; they're just the same, if some not even worse...مجبولين من نفس الطينة

Maya, it is true that the woman in the #1 parent in some parts of the world. But not here in the US, not in my household at least. I was the #1 parent more than a year ago, but not now and won't be for years to come. The #1 parent role is interchangeable here in the US.

Miryam said...

Programmer: Maltese is a Semitic-Latin language - a mixture of both, so we mix our Arabic words together with Spanish and Italian. Ayayay! Shin gerfeesh!

Alhamdulillah! My sister in law's daughter is only 16, and has been engaged since she was...14!!! They were supposed to be married this June, but she broke off her engagement, because she felt "he doesn't respect me - my wishes to continue studying mean nothing to him" RESPECT imho is the most important factor - respect to the other's culture, wishes, personal charachteristics.
I really admire the girl mashaAllah!

Highlander said...

Lol Hanu of course your input is important too . If you recall I did not call the men Dogs it was a friend of mine who did , I was just wondering if she is right about it and why does she call them that ;)

Yes love is not enough in a marriage. However, Trabilsia does have a point and maybe you have forgotten Libyan men ;) because seriously Hanu they are unique in their thinking ( which is not always positive and not always negative) . I think maybe it is the environmental factors which have affected them too and not only culture, because I'm sure your dad and my dad are not the same as today's generation of men. suliman is not a typical Libyan anymore , he is closer I believe to our parent's generation who were more enlightened.

With regards to the woman being #1 parent, I believe it is more along the lines of her being the principal pole of the home , i.e. if you try to imagine the home as a big tent.She is the one in 99% of cases which holds the home toghether. For example when a man is widowed, he tries to cope on his own for a while but he eventually goes and remaries. But when a woman is widowed she can do just fine if she decides to stay single and take care of her kids, even if she is working. Usually it is the woman who keeps her children and family closer knit , the man does not really because his new wife will keep her family closer knit but not that of the earlier children. Of course there are some perfectly good stepmothers as well. By the way i'm not being gender discriminatory here I'm just stating events I've seen repeatedly in various cultures.

On the other hand yes the way you are explaining it both parents when present and alive can have an interchangeable role.

Maya one day I will need to sit down and have a serious talk with you :) to find out more about your ideas , you interest me a lot !

NBA so you want to come to my wedding eh ? well you have given me an idea, I'll have a table reserved just for my blogger friends, if you can get your visa on time you are welcome to the party. Now I first need to find myself the suitable man and I can get married lol.

Myriam , anka yina na'f bil Malti , wi nohbu hafna - no idea if you understood it as i'm sure my spelling was wrong. Inshallah baby Ameenah will be as wonderful as her mum! I live close to Tajura to answer your question from the other comment thread.

One thing I noticed though , apart from LibyanWarrior and Suliman no Libyan men have participated here....why guys aren't you talking ?

Miryam A. N. said...

MashaAllah! that was nice! The spelling is ok - one MUST make allowances for English phoenetics when one is trying to communicate in a Semitic language. Where you in Malta?


Suliman I don't agree with you about premarital love not existing in Islam. The Prophet salli Allahu alayhi wa Sellem knew Khadija before he married her. Ali and Fatimah radi Allahu anom were practically brought up together. They knew each other, respected each other and sort of had marital bliss guaranteed because of that. Maybe hteir marriage was in a way a business transaction too, but still... Also Aswad's wife was given a divorce and returned the garden she'd been given as mahr cause she KNEW she could never love him.

Highlander said...

Thanks Myriam, for bringing more concrete examples to premarital love in Islam ..now we need to hear Suliman's take on this ;)

Maya M said...

Highlander, thank you, we can have the discussion any time you want, on either of our blogs :). Otherwise, I don't think my ideas are very interesting, most of them are not even original, and some are 200 or more years old.
Your saying that today's Libyan men are less enlightened than their fathers deserves much more important place, possibly a separate post. It's so sad and scary. Egyptian bloggers also complain that Egypt becomes less enlightened with every generation. I have the feeling that the whole Muslim world sinks gradually into some whorl trying, with much success, to bring the West along.
I don't know who Aswad was, but the other Miryam's examples are either before Islam was created (Prophet Mohammed and Khadija) or soon after its introduction, before its grip on society became firm (Ali and Fatima). So I'm afraid that, rather than proving that Islam allows premarital love, these examples show that women's status in pre-Islamic Arab society was not as low as Muslim scholars usually claim, and most likely was lowered by Islam.

programmer craig said...

Maya,

With the first 2 lines of his comment, Suliman managed to kill all the fish.

Is that a Bulgarian saying? I like it a lot, I'll have to remember that one :)

Maya M said...

"You killed all the fish" is said when somebody says something short but striking in a discussion. I am not sure whether this saying is really Bulgarian or "imported", because I've seen it neither in other languages nor in older Bulgarian texts. In fact, it cannot be very old because it refers to the modern poachers' method of fishing by bombs or electricity.

Suliman said...

Highlander: When I read your first reply, I thought you were a really good sport. Then, when I read your reply to Hanu in which you noted that I am from her father's generation, I thought: Hey, not only can she take a barb, but she can dish it out, too! lol lol. OK, now here's my contribution from way out there in left field, as the American baseball expression goes. First, though, let me say that I am no authority on Islam, but I am not ignorant of it, and I'm just expressing an opinion. Also, I apologize for rambling a bit, but I felt compelled to be true to my image as a fish-killing kurmudgeon!

I maintain that there is no room for premarital love relations or any kind of premarital intimacy between the sexes in Islam. [There go the fish eggs!] It doesn't mean Muslim humans do not fall in love before marriage! Of course, they do, but it is not at all condoned by the religious teachings, nor by the ethics of islamic societies from Timbukto to Kuala Lumpur. As I said, don't take my words for this, you can go to the authorities and see what they say about the islamic doctrine on fornication, on mixing of the sexes, etc.

Here is just one example of a Fatwa from the Islam-On-Line web site, which is under the supervision of "a committee of the major scholars" headed by Dr. Yousef Qaradawi. Now, there are a lot of Muslim establishments that disagree with Qaradawi and his party (Muslim Brotherhood), notably most of the extremist groups do, and the disagreements cover a lot of ground, but I think most of those divisions run along political lines, not in basic religious doctrine. The authors of this Fatwa (and others linked within it) are also not exactly fringe elements, they include a former president of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), another scholar who is a member of the North American Fiqh (Jurisprudence) Council, etc. Also, the Fatwas cite holy and binding texts in support of banning premarital love and non-marital intimacy of all kinds, for example:



1. From Qur'an (word of God in Islam)

Do not come near fornication, for it is indeed lewdness and an evil life-style. (Al-Isra' 17: 32)

2. From Hadeeth (word of Prophet Mohammed)

i. The fornication of the eyes is staring, the fornication of the ears is listening, the fornication of the tongue is talking, the fornication of the hands is holding, the fornication of the feet is walking, the fornication of the heart/mind is craving and lusting, and finally, the private parts confirm or negate it.

ii. You are allowed to have the first accidental look (which is unintentional), but do not continue to stare.

iii. whenever two strangers of the opposite gender are alone with each other, Satan becomes the third one between them.



As for premarital sex, I'd say, perhaps to your surprise, that Islam actually does permit premarital sex, but only for men with their concubines. I don't think anyone would disagree that a Muslim man has an inalienable right to extra- and premarital sex with his owned concubines.

In addition to non-marital sex with concubines, islamic subscribers also have the (less) widely agreed upon allowance of Pleasure Marriage, which some apologists like to call Temporary Marriage, others "Marriage with Intent to Divorce." Whatever the name, the provision is fundamentally a legal means, or loophole if you pardon the pun, to engage in extramarital sex. While one can argue that Pleasure Marriage is an equal-opportunity affair for men and women, in practice, the consequent damages are severely imbalanced against women.

Against this background, one might have a different appreciation for HL's point about the double standard of Libyan culture on love. A Libyan man can express and share his love with a woman, but only while "playing around." When it comes time to settle down and get married, he will seek a different partner, one that meets the standards of his "mom" (really he is heeding the voice of the subconscious of his culture.) A Libyan man can have premarital relations without loss, but a dead-ended premarital relation for a woman means her condemnation. Let me just cut it short and say, on a certain level the Libyan man is just harking back to a bygone "golden era" by viewing and treating his girlfriend as his concubine or his partner in a temporary arrangement.

Some brief replies...

Miryam: I have to second Maya's point that the examples you mentioned can hardly support the argument for premarital love in Islam. Mohammed was employed by Khadija, and their pre-marriage relation was sanctioned by the prevailing ethics of pre-islamic Arabs. Also, I'd add that one cannot in general mistake the special privileges accorded to Prophet Mohammed with the general rights of Muslim men, particularly in regard to matrimonial rights and such. As for Fatima and Ali having practically grown up together, I'd say they were non-Mahrams (eligible for marriage) to one another, and as such, I cannot see how they could have enjoyed any special rights to circumvent the clear and strong barriers against intimate mixing of the sixes. And the third case you brought up is really a case of no-love before and after marriage, rather than love before marriage. I don't know the details of the case, so I'm not sure about the emphasis you placed on her KNOWING she could never love her fiance. Perhaps you meant, she could not have known that without having had an opportunity to know him well enough to decide? Again, since the case is all about non-intimacy, it fails to serve as an example of premarital love.

Maya: I had said there was no room for premarital love in Islam, and you added that there were none in any religion. So, if I killed all the fish in one pond, you wiped out the entire species! lol lol BTW, in Libya, when a cast net falls on a big school of fish, and they start popping up, we used to say "it's boiling." [That's a prehistoric expression, HL.] So Maya: There are no dead fish here, I think the thread is boiling!

HL: Platonic love is a misnomer. Plato never denied or dismissed the physical, bodily attraction, and even if he spoke of other kinds of love, he did not make them replacements or substitutes, just further developments.

programmer craig said...

Just want to point out that I promised to "Love, Honor and Cherish" my wife when I took the wedding vows. As do virtually all Christians. Which pretty much means pre-marital love is not only allowed in Christianity, it's required :)

So you guys go kill your own fish, leave the Christian fish alone!!

Suliman said...

PC: I have learned from discussions with Christians that whenever they get cornered about some aspect of Christian faith, they run away and hide behind "I don't believe in that part," sort of like what the insurance companies call the "cafeteria plan," where a subscriber can pick and chose which part to believe and which to discard. So, I ask: To which brand of Christianity are you referring? Some good Christians don't engage in the practice of marriage at all! Other good Christians believe in marriage for some people and deny it to others.

In any case, the saying (aka vow) you quoted only partially is done at the time of marriage; and as a promise, it necessarily refers to the future, i.e., post-marriage love. I don't know how you conculde that a promise of future commitment constitutes evidence of past practice. If you really believe that, then I have some land to sell you.

The part of the promise you forgot to mention is the one about marriage being an irreversible lifelong sentence. Have you ever asked yourself where (some) Christians got the concept of divorce, and whether it constitutes a violation of the prior commitment? Please do.

Trabilsia said...

This is getting to be a religious affair. It started out for the choice of marrying someone you love versus someone loving you more ! Not forgetting about Libyan males being dogs( which I highly disapprove of)Sorry highlander.All in all men have this macho ego which scares the hell out of young females dreamimg of Mr. Right !
With the divorce rate sky high in Libya I'd suggest you take your time and think it out carefully before taking such a big step.
A last word concerning the divorce rate in Libya ,which should be a cause of great concern to all being due to great expectations and unfullfilled demands. Love I believe has little to do with marital life, sacrfice is the word.

programmer craig said...

Hi Suliman,

PC: I have learned from discussions with Christians that whenever they get cornered about some aspect of Christian faith, they run away and hide behind

What's your excuse then? I've seen you pay lip service to things that are written in the Quran, and then turn around and justify the verse being treated as "invalid" by muslims due to some inane and contrived fiction that muslims have created for themselves.

Example: Even though previous scripture is endorsed dozens of times in the Quran, previous scripture is unimportant because it's been "tampered" with.

Why not just say the previous scripture is irrelevant in Islam, and to hell with what is written in the Quran? Don't you think that would be more honest?

So, I ask: To which brand of Christianity are you referring?

The kind that Jesus taught :D

Want some quotes from my "invalid" Bible? I'll be happy to provide them. Just ask :)

Some good Christians don't engage in the practice of marriage at all!

No idea what you are talking about here.

Other good Christians believe in marriage for some people and deny it to others.

Same. You're talking about Gay Marriage, or what? What does this have to do with Christianity? Gay Marriage is not authorized in the Bible. Period.

In any case, the saying (aka vow) you quoted only partially is done at the time of marriage;

No. It's done before marriage.

Really, Suliman, this is an absurd discussion. Christians believe in pre-marital Love. Whole heartedly and without reservation. To say otherwise is just silliness.

But as I said before, I will be happy to provide Bible quotes if you wish. Jesus spoke of Love many times.

The part of the promise you forgot to mention is the one about marriage being an irreversible lifelong sentence.

It's not. Want more Bible Quotes on divorce as well?

Have you ever asked yourself where (some) Christians got the concept of divorce

Nope. I actually can read for myself. I know very well where the rules for divorce come from. The Book of Moses under Judaism, modified half a dozen places by Jesus under Christianity.

and whether it constitutes a violation of the prior commitment? Please do.

The prior commitment is rendered null and void if your spouse violates it. Christians are not expected to remain married to somebody who has been unfaithful, for instance. Though it is encouraged to try to work things out.

Suliman, I'm divorced myself, and as a divorced Christian I have to say I find much of your commmentary pretty offensive. I assume you've never read the Bible, but at least you could do some research on the internet before you start trashing another religion. Christianity is not what you describe.

I cannot believe that you actually think Christians get married without being in love. I've never even heard of that. The first thing you are likely to hear a Christian say to somebody who is considering marriage is "Do you love him/her?" because love is considered the most important criteria to us.

Trabilsia said...

Yes programmer craig I totally agree with you. Christians, do have a thing for love which is emphasized a great deal as do all Holy Books.
What is marriage ??(Christian Religion Islam etc)
It's the unification of two souls (male/ female ) to procreate .If not united by religion it is then considered a sin.Gay marriages here are out of the question , not that I have anything against them. No religion approves such unity. So Sulaiman, you should be careful!

Trabilsia said...

I forgot to mention this....
Dear Sulaiman You said some Christians do and some don't . When we say Christians we should emphasize whether they're practising Christians or not. You can have fantastic friends as you mentioned who are born into the faith(we have this in Islam )and are non practitioners so should we call them Christians ???

Suliman said...

Excuse me.

Here's what I said:

Some good Christians don't engage in the practice of marriage at all!

Example of that: Celibate Christians like the Shakers. [BTW, Shaker ethics of simplicity and hard work are reflected in the absolute best furniture design I've ever seen.]

Other good Christians believe in marriage for some people and deny it to others.

Example: Let's see... how about The Catholic Church? I guess that would include the POPE!

No need to go further, certainly not with PC's arguments old and new. I have difficulty following PC's logic. So once again, Peace, brother Craig!

But I would like to reply briefly to Trabilsia: I don't bother deciding who is a Christian or a Muslim or whatever. I once asked an official at work whether I qualify as an African American, and if not, why not? She ultimately said, well you are really who you think you are. So, I spent the rest of the day thinking I was a billionaire, didn't get much out of that, but it confirmed my belief that no harm comes from accepting whatever name people decide to call themselves. To me, Christians include everyone who says he/she is a Christian, from Michael Jackson to Pat Robertson! But I understand that fundamentalists disagree with that view, and they might not have any problem dismissing large groups as being out of the faith, like all catholics or all Shi'a or whatever.

programmer craig said...

The Shakers, an offshoot of the Religious Society of Friends (or Quakers), originated in Manchester, England in the early 18th century. Strict believers in celibacy, Shakers maintained their numbers through conversion and adoption. Once boasting thousands of adherents, today the Shakers number less than a handful of people living in Sabbathday Lake, Maine.

A "handful" of people. Out of almost 2 billion.

Other good Christians believe in marriage for some people and deny it to others.

A) Oaths of Celibacy are voluntary.

B) Celibacy does not come from the Bible. Most Christians believe Jesus was Celibate, and *some* Christian Churches believe that those who dedicate their lives to the service of God should be celibate.

Celibacy has nothing to do with Marriage, Suliman. It's a *choice* people make.

Example: Let's see... how about The Catholic Church? I guess that would include the POPE!

I'm not Catholic, but you know... I'm pretty sure Catholics get married! It's divorces that Catholics have a problem with.

No need to go further, certainly not with PC's arguments old and new. I have difficulty following PC's logic. So once again, Peace, brother Craig!

You launch an all out assault on core Christian values, then sign off with "peace brother Craig" - well, all right then. I'm not trying to use logic, I'm trying to correct the false things you've said about Christianity. If you'd rather not know the truth, then I'd rather you stop talking about things you obviously know very little about, Suliman.

That's what I meant when I said:

So you guys go kill your own fish, leave the Christian fish alone!!

I was frustrated enough the last time we discussed Christianity and you pretty much said Christianity was a false religion. At least that time you used Islam to attack Christianity. This time you're just plain wrong. No two ways about it. You're making false claims about Christian beliefs.

To me, Christians include everyone who says he/she is a Christian

Yes. Same as in Islam, no?

But I understand that fundamentalists disagree with that view, and they might not have any problem dismissing large groups as being out of the faith

You're wrong even on this. Catholics can excommunicate catholics, although I don't believe anybody has been excommunicated in a very long time. Protestants (like me) have no recourse but to accept that somebody who says they are a Christian is in fact a Christian. That's why groups like the Shakers and the Branch Davidians exist, and can call themselevs a Christian sect. And the Mormons too, for that matter.

Maya M said...

I'm afraid that, by being unclear, I caused misunderstanding and some exchange of gunshots between Suliman and Programmer Craig. Of course Christianity, unlike Islam, allows mixing, conversation etc. between men and women and so allows "platonic" premarital love. However, it puts the label of sin on all PHYSICAL aspects of premarital love (and, according to many Christian scholars, also on the physical aspects of marital love, allowing sexuality only for procreation). Of course sex is not everything, but it is important, too.
Once I talked with a professor of physiology about child care and she mentioned that physical contact with the mother is thought to be important to prevent aggression in adult life. I said, "I suppose that Muslim mothers, being all day with their children, hug them a lot; so why do Muslim societies have such a high yield of aggressive people?" She answered, "This aggression has another source - the strict taboos on sex in Islam" and gave me the URL http://www.violence.de/prescott/bulletin/article.html to read more. I recommend this article to everybody. In fact it doesn't even mention Islam. I don't know why - because Islam was making fewer headlines in 1975 or (less likely) because the author knew how unperceptive Muslims are to direct criticism of Islam and preferred to approach eventual Muslim readers indirectly. We illustrate such indirect criticism with the saying, "I am telling you, daughter, take notice you, daughter-in-law".

Highlander said...

Hi Suliman :)

It seems that on internet no matter how much one tries to express oneself, people are bound to misintepret things or interpret them the way they want.

I don't know what 'a good sport' is , but I'm assuming it is a good characteristic :)

Suliman is not a typical Libyan anymore , he is closer I believe to our parent's generation who were more enlightened.

That statement Suliman was actually a compliment not a 'barb' :) it meant that you are as enlightened as I think my father and Hanu's father are. Men who have raised confident , well educated women :) Unfortunately I don't think that the new fathers now are even remotely near the minds of our parents...Because I
(wrongly perhaps) assumed that you have not been to Libya for a while and because of obviously your extensive culture ( as in the sense if being well educated) I thought this has set you apart from the men of your generation who are in Libya here and who think differently and this in my eyes made you closer to men of my dads generation who are my heroes lol .

Maybe I should define again what premarital Love means to me ? It could have been confusing ...the way this word has been bandied left and right lately ...

Premarital Love = feelings of love for someoene. only feelings. it can include meeting , talking , admitting to love, but there is certainly no sex. you still feel that you want to marry the person though => maybe that is too naive ;) that is what I also call platonic love , yes you feel physical attraction but you don't act on it . I was not delving deep into Plato's subconscious .



This way the guy has no take on the woman. The problem arise if the woman tells him in plain words she does love him, that's when some guys start to have a big head ... It's stupid I know.

I know you've brought the examples of Zina ( fornication) when one thinks about the person, but my definition is not that extreme :) and even the hypocrite Libyan guys cannot invoke that reason ....


To get back to the post ...I had a simple question what do you think is better if 2 men come to ask for my hand.?..
Man number one : loves me very much, I feel that he would be a good husband , but I don't love him.
Man number two: I love him very much , but maybe he likes me just as a suitable woman .

Trabilsia said...

It really depends on which way you look at things;
This is a dilemma !
To marry for love or for convenience .
1)You have to ask yourself first who'll make you happier.
2) Is it fair to the young man who loves you emensely to not return his love !(or will you be able to )
3) Are you okay, when you are married for convenience !

I hope I have clarified things for you a little.Wishing you all the best.

programmer craig said...

What, back on topic now!? :D

Highlander, it sounds like you are asking the question whther it's better to be loved, or to love?

Everything else is equal between the two candidates?

I think I would say it's more important to Love. Love is a very halthy emotion, as long as it doesn't become something extreme.

Of course, the ideal is when love is mutual, but if I had to make a chocie, I'd rather be the one who was in love than the one who wasn't.

NBA said...

Yes, back to the original topic as Craig also noted.

Dr. NBA the world (in)famous relationship counseller recommends Highlander not to say yes to anybody who loves (or claims to love) her if she doesn't love her back. Neither is it good to marry someone you suspect even before the wedding that he thinks you're OK but doesn't quite love you. It should always be mutual love and respect and if not, then better stay alone, wait for the suitable match or be happy with being on one's own.

For more in depth advice, I should perhaps earn some extra money by establishing a telephone hotline for a high fee LOL.

Highlander said...

NBA LOL ;)....

Dear All I think I am going to take your advice and simply follow my heart when the time comes hopefully the guy will love me back as well and will make it very clear !

ontripoli said...

First of all not ontime but on tripoli is the name of my blog, " it takes two to tango" is a proverb that means two people are innvolved and the two bear the respponsibility of thier interaction. Man and woman are the products of thier environemnts, a man is raised by a woman they call her mother a doughter is also raised by a woman they also call her mother, the abscence of that creature that is called mother in a spiritual way causes a dramatical melt down in the brainial data that is responsible for a peacefull out look and reason towards the other who is going to be the spouse(in the man's case) the same applies for the creature called father in the same format or equation if you like.