Saturday, March 31, 2007

The Best of the Libyan Blogosphere: March 2007

I'm sure you are all waiting impatiently for this monthly post LOL ..ok ok I know I'm exagerating, but here we go...

Beacon from Tripoli Nights has made me tearful with his reminder about the Prophet's last sermon, part of which I've been proudly displaying in my blog header for years now. This is more special as this week we celebrated the Mawled of Prophet Mohamed.


"In the year 632 (After christ), 9th day of Dhul al Hijjah, 10 Hijiri in the
'Uranah valley of Mount Arafat, Prophet Mohamed (PBUH), spoke one of the most
important words ever to be spoken by any human, he gave his last Sermon, and I
believe its a Universal charter of Humanity, suitable for all time."

[more].


Mani from Sands of Time has not blogged since November, however his prolific comments on the Libyan blogs are stand alone posts and we are all mighty pleased when he makes an appearance as we value his opinion. I suggest he should go right now and collect them and post them again on his blog with the link to the original. That is why I am going to highlight one such post/comment that caught my eye and which I think deserves to be featured into the best of the Libyan blogs section .



"Reconciling this disconnect between perverted institutions and societies at
large is an issue of governance. Not 'good governance' as the neo-liberal term
implies (a set of policies designed to promote greater private control over
natural resources and human capital, and the complete 'marketisation' of state
economies, that they are connected fully to international markets) but GOOD
governance, one that reflects the principles of democratic societies and one
that ensures accountability at all levels of institutional development."


I think Hafed agrees with me very much as he dedicated a post to this comment :)



If you wondered why Safia was silent for the last few weeks you can now understand what happened as she explains it on her post "Breaking the silence" guaranteed cliffhanger ...


"Finally I am able to break the imposed silence on my blog. I am supposed to
keep blog-silence until Wednesday, but hell if I am going to accept anyone
silencing me into submission.Last year I joined people in Denmark defending the
rights of artists to draw what they want, but said I did not like what they did
while drawing our Prophet (saas).The same courtesy has not been extended to me."


[more].

Sereeb our romantic Libyan writer is happy and our heart is beating cheerfully for her happiness too .


"Well, the reason I’m up this early is, hmm, I’m so excited, I’m so happy. No,
no, I haven’t won the Lottery. Neither got a book deal (which I think it will be
imminent). Hmm, so what do you think is the reason of my excitement! Can you
guess! No! Hmm. Well, the reason is I just got my first invitation to do my
first ever reading. Hooray! Yup, the Bedouin Soadina is invited to do her first
reading and please don’t ask me where as I’m not going to tell, hee-hee."

[more]

Mabrouk ya Sousou , you go girl warihum :)

Besheshentra has made a hilarious post about Libyans and Meat - in Arabic , and oh boy her message is so true. One thing ya Bashush , in Morocco they are even crazier than us with meat so don't lament :)

The following post is one of the best I have read for a long time. First of all Happy Birthday to Hannu and to the rest of the Libyan bloggers who's birthdays coincidently enough fell on March. Secondly, no I am not born in March, but there is no need for you guys to know when I was born :P. Now most importanly the post I want to feature is a touching tribute from Suliman to Hannu.


"I wouldn't say it's been an easy ride, but it has been a good ride. I generally
like to see the process of learning and personal growth around me, that's why I
like teaching. But seeing growth in the ones you love is a whole 'nother' thing
all together. I never had a shred of doubt. Hannu is an A student in a ranked,
fiercely competitive program. She has been active in and out of the classroom,
awarded one competitive scholarship, currently in the running for a Pace Setter
Award, and the Fisher School's magazine wants to run a piece on her. If you
think I'm proud, you're damn right I am, but not at all surprised! I knew from
day one, :-) and I know there is a lot more to come."


[more]

This is the stuff of love and reminded me so much of my own dad and mom , maybe that's why I have been still holding out for Mr. Highlander ? ( more news on that soon :P ) as my criteria are quite rigorous it seems ! So Mabrouk Sol and Hannu - great job !

Many bloggers wrote about Mother's Day and Children's Day in Libya which take place annually on March 21 , but Trabilsia's post is the most heart warming one . She is reporting to us on the special day we spoke about here for the terminally ill children in Tripoli Medical Center. Thank you Trabilsia!


"I asked a teenager ( Basma) the oldest of the children on the ward what
she had, to which she replied Leukemia . Such a big word for a child , I hugged
her and felt her pain and she knew it . I had tears in my eyes as I desperately
tried to comfort her to which she said it was the wish of Allah . She introduced
us to the other suffering children as she was the oldest and knew what everybody
had."

[more]

Dima Ghariba Shwayia is not as unconventional as she likes to think :P , many of us are in your boat habibti even though we don't live abroad . I could not make up my mind which of her posts for March would go on this post but I decided to judge by my favourite bête noire, the so called search for a Libyan/Arab Muslim hubby , and then it was easy to decide . Ladies and gents here is an excerpt from her post Unhushed Whispers...



"You would think that as big as the U.S. is, there really would be no trouble
meeting someone nice who shares many of the same qualities as you. I am here to
tell you that it is absolutely impossible for an Arab American girl to find
someone like that [..] Did you know that between 60-80% of the Arab Americans
who live in the U.S. are Christian? Most Americans are completely ignorant of
this fact, but female Arab American Muslims are not. Right away, the odds are
stacked against them, at least in terms of finding a potential mate. So then you
look at what’s left. There are three types of Arabic Muslim men in the US. "

AngloLibyan's post ' can we coexist' touched a raw nerve for yours truly it simply illustrated the sheer ignorant arrogance of some people .

"I saw my Scottish friend again, he told me what had happened after I left
him and his friend that day, his friend asked him if I was a Muslim to which he
replied yes, the other guy then said that he was surprised because he thought I
was nice (i.e. not a nasty Muslim terrorist), my friend asked him why he said
that to which the other guy replied that he does not trust Muslims, my friend
asked him how many Muslims he knows, the reply was non, he never even met a
Muslim before "


Finally Lebeeya had a comic post about the reason for the attempted ban of Libyan women under 40 to travel on their own. Going back to her blog to feature it in this post, I found that it had been unfortunately removed and we shall be deprived of the good laugh she usually gives us.
I'm wondering what prompted this action and whether it was the direction the comment section regarding of that particualr post took that led to its ban. I will take this opportunity to say that although I did not get the chance to read all the comments re. that particular post, I did however manage to follow on some regretfully hurtful accusations hurtled back and forth. With all humble experience as the first Libyan blogger I have seen this negativity only once before on a different topic and I would like to urge all the big Libyan blogger family to be courteous to each other regardless of differences of opinion. There is no need to name people in order to maintain each person's privacy and 7urma. I am so sorry about the very dear person who was innocently hurt there. Hopefully this incident would remind us that words are sometimes deadlier than a sword. Leebeeya you did well in removing the offensive stuff, however there is a tool which allows you to leave a particular post but not show its comments.

44 comments:

Safia speaks said...

Good to see you back!
Don´t stay away so long time again!!!!

programmer craig said...

What did Safia say 10 or 12 years ago that makes this Israeli-Danish journalist think she is a holocaust denier?

And why is it a big secret than an Isreali was in the Israeli military for 2 years? That's a legal requirement of Israeli citizenship I think. Anybody who calls themselves "Israeli" has been in the Israeli military for two years :)

The whole Safia thing has me very confused. I read the whole post and I still feel like I haven't heard *either* side of the story. What is Safia being accused of, and what is Safia accusing the other party of? I spent 20 minutes reading that, and I still have no idea what's going on.

Safia speaks said...

Programmer Craig,

The story is looong and complicated.

11 years ago I was a member of Islamic Student Organization at Copenhagen University. When racist Danish People´s Party wanted to deny Muslims access to higher military occupation, I threatened to help Danish Muslims getting military carreers elsewhere.

No big secret, everybody knows that and the media had be sizzling for weeks then.

Last months I wrote an entry on my blog about a visit to the Danish Museum of Resistance (you can read it on my blog) and I linked to David Irving, who is a revisionist. I am not a revisionist, but islamophobic mobsters wrote an article claiming me to be a holocaust denier.

Which is totally ridiculous; anybody reading my blog entry will see that, and the public here in Denmark knows that I always fight nazism and fascism in my writings and in politics (I am a member of the Conservative Party in Denmark).

Now islamophobists are claiming I am a holocaust denier and "look what she did/said in 1996!"

Furthermore I was so stupid to mock those two islamophobic journalists by photoshopping an old image of the two hate-mongers together with Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Now the party wants me expelled, and I don´t wanna go. So, I raise hell. I have slapped two lawsuits against the newspaper and against the head of the racist Danish People´s Party.

These people have managed to make 8 other Muslims expelled from their respective parties. Only Safia stays put and fights, and I guess nobody did expect that.

The next few weeks will be total mayhem between me and the Danish People´s Party in public - if my party expells me, the case will develop even more, because a lot of Muslims here are going to raise hell if that happens. You are probably gonna see me on al-Jazeera, if the story rolls on ;-)

LoneH, sorry for posting an answer to Programmer C on your site, but I cannot answer him thru my own these days.

Hope y´all understand...

BeSHeSHeNtRa... said...

Thank u lonehighlander for ur nice words , i am glad that u liked my post about Libyan and meat ..
i never knew that Moroco has the same issue with meat !!
what can i say !
God helps us all . lol

Highlander said...

Thanks Safia :) for your comments .

Programmer_Craig , thanks for your comment and reading of the posts I link to :) I can see that Safia has replied to your questions, so I guess she is the best one qualified to do so in this case.

Besheshentra :) welcome to my blog yes in Morocco they eat a LOT of meat but they cook it sooooooooooooooo nicely my mouth is already watering ..

programmer craig said...

Well, Safia, I don't really think you should be calling other people "racists" after that post you made on your blog where you claimed Europeans were happier as slaves in Muslim North Africa than as free citizens of Europe. I can easily see why somebody would think you were a bigot and a racist yourself. I haven't been back to your blog since you made that post until yesterday, and that was over a year ago. I have a problem with your opinions, so I can understand why others do.

All that said, you are certainly entitled to do as you please. But I still don't understand why your primary attack on the Israeli-Danish woman seems to be the two years of service in the Israeli military, which all Israeli citizens are required to do?

All Libyans were required to serve in the military at one time, were they not?

Anonymous said...

Just dropped by to say hello. Hopeyou are doing well, and speak to you soon.

Redneck

mani said...

salam highlander

thanks for the mention. I have done as you advised. now they are up and Ill make a regular committment to maintain it now.. thanks for everything :)

salam

Curt from Houston said...

I'd feel a lot more comfortable if the first two lines went like this:

" No Muslim has superiority over a non-Muslim, and no non-Muslim has superiority over a Muslim."

Comments?

Maya M said...

Highlander, children with leukemia are not in all cases terminally ill! Indeed, the treatment is very expensive and not always successful, but it exists.

Trabilsia said...

Thanks Highlander for your kind words. I did nothing really. I hope to do more so as to have our children smiling like other children in the world who are terminally ill and are treated for their depression due to the chemo.

Highlander said...

Mani :) yay this is great , I hope another of my friends does that too so that he can keep track of what he says :)
Mabrouk !

Curt from Houston - loaded question here eh ? throwing some ideas around :) - This is what the quote says [ The criteria for acceptance in the sight of God are righteousness and honest living.]. It says nothing about Muslims or non- Muslims , it does not need to say that. However, I remember in the Bible and New Testament , depending on which school I attended that the criteria for being saved on the day of Judgment for Christianity was for Christians only - how do you think that makes one feel ? I'm sure someone can find the relevant verse. Does that mean we should revise the Gospel/Bible/New Testament/Old Testament/Torah to show this inclusion that not only the Christian will go to Heaven but also the Jews and the Muslims ? what do you think ?
Of course we can argue about what does the term Islam then stand for...
Thanks for your comment it is interesting and I'm sure Mani or someone else will probably have a better reply than my very very ignorant one :P

Maya M :) thank you for reminding me , yes I'm aware that Leukemia can be treated at times and with the right kind of money. This is a state hospital, it depends really at what stage the cancer was caught and other factors, you can see that one of the patients is 12 years old - how long has she been in hospital ? and not everyone gets a place in hospital which means basically cancer is a death sentence for them. Look at Kyle Minogue how long she took to be treated for breast cancer and how weak she still is now and this lady is loaded with money as a performer. I guess it falls down to economics sometimes :( and what is available.

But I do always appreciate you sound input because you are a scientist yourself . Thanks

Highlander said...

Trabilsia, you are welcome I wish one could do more to highlight such efforts by all Libyans as I am sure there are many wlad 7alal that love to kheir !

mani said...

Ah highlander your reply were very neat and short..and any reply I do just turns out to be me reflecing on my own and not sticking to the origional question.. so maybe on my blog inshallah..and those that wish to share some reflections.. well itll be their choice to read too.. but I just wanna say something quickly to Curt..

1) everyone in the world would feel a lot more comfortable if things were said and done the way they thought.. and thank goodness thats not the case cause that makes no room for human error.. our own comforts are our own standards.. does that make them right?.. that point is on its own a lifestime discussion...

2) when u say 'Id feel a lot more comfortable if the first two lines went like this:

" No Muslim has superiority over a non-Muslim, and no non-Muslim has superiority over a Muslim."

that just means you think that Muslim/ Non muslim is the same category as Arab/ Non Arab, White/ Non white etc.. that's not the point.. our own physical, cultural, distinctions are superflous and meaningless when it comes to Islam... We are all equal in our humanity...The entire distinction between humans is righetousness and honest living... by whose standard??.. God's.. and thats what we believe Islam is.. its a universal message, that was usurped for power everytime the message was revaled to correct those that transgressed God's laws. Usurped by the followers of Muhammed PBUH, By the follwers of Christ PBUH, and by the followers of Moses PBUH.

Your question is at the heart of the Islam struggle that the world will face more and more of everyday.. with disastrous consequences in the future unfortuantly...

programmer craig said...

that just means you think that Muslim/ Non muslim is the same category as Arab/ Non Arab, White/ Non white etc.. that's not the point..

Mani, I don't agree. Religious bigotry is a fact, and it's not exclusive to Islam. Saying it's not in the same category as racism, doesn't make it so! I'd go so far as to say that religious bigotry is a bigger problem in the world today than racism is. There aren't many places where people are being killed because of their ethnicity, of late. Sudan is the only place I can think of.

In the case of Islam, the problem is acute, because the Quran makes specific distinctions between Muslims and non-Muslims. Which is a tacit endorsement of religious bigotry. The New Testament does teh same to an extent, but only in regards to the quality of a person's spirituality. In the Quran, non-Muslims have fewer rights and priveledges, and fewer protections, than Muslims. I'm willing to argue this with you, but I don't really see a point as anybody who has read more than few pages of the Quran has seen examples of what I am talking about.

So, in response to Curt... I don't think the Prophet would have ever said that no Muslim was superior to a non-Muslim, because he didn't believe that.

mani said...

Salam Craig

Yes I agree 'religious' bigotry is a fact. That’s why Islam is not a 'Religion' in the conventional sense of the word, regardless if 1 billion Muslims refer to it as so. If I were to agree it that it is so then I would agree that a number of 'religions' exist in the world, and of course to me that is a fallacy. Cultures and institutions exist in the world, all following their own religion, themselves.

The other fallacious translation of the word 'religion' in Arabic is DEEN, which is also incorrect (again I say this regardless of the millions of muslims and billions in the world who think otherwise).
I believe Deen, or 'religiousity' can only ever be binary, and in the Quran it is ever only Binary, because God has only one Deen, which is submission to him. All other human religious 'instituions' make up the opposite of Islam, including the clergy 'religions' I talked about in my previous comment.

Whatever sects or 'religions' petty humans institutionalise is irrelevant for the bigger picture( be it the Christina sects, the jewsish sects, the muslims sects etc etc).

This statement on its own is probably enough for 99% of the muslims community to consider me a heretic but I stand firm.

Bigotry is Bigotry, and its always a fact…whatever garb humans chooses to dress it in.. its just a mass of people whom think themselves superior to another mass of people.. superiority in the sense that their 'rights' are not equal….

throw in ur labels and divide into ur binary categories now.. in fact I'd go so far to say that the biggest bigotry that we have in the world today is between 'modernists' and 'traditionalists', or the have's and the have nots (in our modern consumerist age) cause the word is slowly showing its true colours and separating into the true meanings of 'DEEN'.. bigotry is coming out of hiding behind the old garbs of religion, sexism, racism.. You may say 'religious bigotry' cause that’s how its manufactured in world press.. 'religion' is a nice category to use as it appeal's to people's emotions quicker rather than their reason..'religion' is a much more wholesome notion of identity… that’s why it can effect them more quickly and more potently.. but in the hearts and minds of real people who meet and greet each other every day.. it’s a different story..

Im aware that I may have lost you.. but that’s simply because I cant be confined to the terms of debate choosen for us by an 'Islamic' school of thought that has usurped the terms of knowledge for the greatest meaning of life. you still understand the issue from a mainstream point of view and I don’t blame you for that.

Let me show you how much you are influenced (and not only u but the millions of us muslims too that think Islam is just another 'religion') by the mainstream.

The Quran makes no distinction between Muslims and Non Muslims whatsoever. At all. In fact, the Quran shows us through and through that Islam means the submission to God's commandments for which faith is the constant struggle. Islam has been there from the start, throughout all prophets and even if you ask mainstream muslims.. 'Was Jesus PBUH a muslim?".. they'' say.. yes… "was Moses a Muslim".. they’ll say.. yes.. and so on… The Quran just describes and endorses Islam.

The distinctions that the Quran DOES make are only spiritual that relate to 'believers and disbelievers', "Guidance and misguidance". 'Those who know and those who don’t'. and the many ends all with the same continuum.

If there is this higher distinction then, the notion of equality is confined only to our humanity and humanly governance. WE ARE ALL EQUAL UNDER THE law. But does that mean we are all EQUAL? By which standard are we unequal? and even the jurisprudence mentioned in the quran makes NO distinction between MUSLIMS and NON MUSLIMS, just believers and disbelievers.. of course that is easily judged by society as is someone breaking the law easily judged and punished by society. THE NOTION OF ABSOLUTE HUMAN EQUALITY IS THE BIGGEST FALLACY unless u are of course a communist :)

"In the Quran, non-Muslims have fewer rights and priveledges, and fewer protections, than Muslims"..0

sorry to burst the bubble but that’s completely untrue.. you may have gotten that from some ahadith but that’s not the Quran.

I am happy to argue all this with u but there are a number of things u need to understand about me first…

1) I do not ENDORSE any hadith (with all respect to our prophet SAW who may or may not have said them honestly) so if ur gonna argue from there please don’t.. no point.. The Quran is our only source. Ahadith for me are simply a collection of wisdoms and lies that the prophet may have said or may have not and by no right do any of those narrators (nor indeed the prophet SAW) have any divine right to have these as 'extra' jurisprudence besides the Quran {this is to me the core of the solution to the entire 'religious' dilemma}

2. If we are to debate the one thing we need to agree on is that none of us is trying to debate to prove anything (unless they are FACTUAL assertions.. history is also dubious but we can do that :).. rather.. our debate should just follow a the questioning dialectics method, used by Hegel and usurped by marx :P..

salam craig...high

Curt from Houston said...

"...the criteria for being saved on the day of Judgment for Christianity was for Christians only - how do you think that makes one feel?"

Probably pretty crappy H. That’s why I am no longer a Christian. I was raised Lutheran but could not accept this dogma as a tenant of my belief system. Also, I don’t believe that by nature men (and women) are by nature “sinful and unclean”. Another self flagellating tenant of Christianity. I’m quite “comfortable” in my Agnosticism.

If the big guy or gal is out there, I hope he loves both you and me for the content of our characters, not what direction we kneel to ask him or her favors in.

Hope that helps.

Curt from Houston said...

"So, in response to Curt... I don't think the Prophet would have ever said that no Muslim was superior to a non-Muslim, because he didn't believe that."

My point exactly.

Curt from Houston said...

"The criteria for acceptance in the sight of God are righteousness and honest living. It says nothing about Muslims or non-Muslims.

I'm cool with that H. If I have to stand in front of the Big guy or gal some day, I'm willing to let my life stand for itself. I don't need some self proclaimed holy man to tell me when I've screwed up. I know that much for myself. And I've done it plenty. Anyone that says otherwise is a liar.

Having said that. I don't think that making mistakes makes me evil. It only makes me human. Knowingly not correcting your mistakes and then repeating them may mean that you are evil. {probably some bad wiring) :-)

Curt from Houston said...

Safia, I just finished reading Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book {Infidel) last night. While she has some very disturbing things to relate about how Islam is practiced in much of the world today, I found no hint of racism in it. Please point out the racist parts I missed. :-)

Curt from Houston said...

Just out of curiosity. Is Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book {Infidel) generally available in any countries in the Muslim world? How widely has it been read? Have you read it Safia? How about you H? Inquiring minds want to know. :-)

Curt from Houston said...

...our own physical, cultural, distinctions are superfluous and meaningless when it comes to Islam... We are all equal in our humanity... by whose standard??.. God's.. and that’s what we believe Islam is.. It’s a universal message.

So what is to become of the majority of us who do not believe that Islam is a universal message?

The Christians certainly feel the same way. Also, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists... etc.

Why are they all wrong and the Muslims are right?

The Lost Libyano said...

Dima Ghariba Shwayia is not as unconventional as she likes to think :P , many of us are in your boat habibti even though we don't live abroad

What are yall talking about??!!!

I am single and waiting right here.lol.:)

Hey my favorite Blogging Nemisis PC is here, great to see u blogging dude:P

How goes it homie?

I wanted to discuss a coment you made below.


"The New Testament does teh same to an extent, but only in regards to the quality of a person's spirituality."

I do agree with you 100% that Non-Muslims are not by anymeans equal to Muslims.

All non-muslims will burn in hell ethernally, their shall be no salvation them. This is without a doubt. but to argue that Christianity those not preach the same message is complete hypocrisy.

Below is a very famouse verse that Christians are always stating, in their surromons.

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.(John 14:5-7)"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_NNNmXytZY

Thats all I am going to say on the issue. I must say though I am a bit distresed by the following verses, in regards to my well being as seeing how I worship Allah and thats not the god of the bible. because the bible states:

Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

Now i know "Modern Day" Christians do not take the old testament because they can not swallow some of the tougher aspects of the faith, but by all means this is a part of Christianity.

Because Jesus said:


"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law of the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

Now that scares me as seeing how many Churches are around my place.

But dont worry about your saftey when you visit a Muslim Country. Our religion says.

Quran 15:2-3

"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy and to please themselves: let hope amuse them: soon will knowledge."

Quran 10:99-100

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand."

Quran 2:256 "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."

And now my friend as God has stated in his holy book

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine." (Quran 109:1-6)

Peace and Glad tidings my Christian Friend.

Maya M said...

Time for a little war again :)?
As usual, I agree with Curt and Programmer Craig.
Mani, I admit I don't understand most of what you are writing, but I agree that at present time, the binary distinction is - Islam against everybody else and (I'll add), as a consequence, everybody else having something between their ears against Islam.
But how can you state that the Koran doesn't give fewer rights to non-Muslims? Perhaps you haven't read the book? It tells Muslims to have no rest until all we non-Muslims are converted, subjected to dhimmi status or murdered.
I personally have no problems concerning afterlife. If God decides to place Bin Laden in Heaven and Mother Teresa in Hell, this is his business. What I object is being pushed off the Earth.

mani said...

Salam All

My replies will have to be short but Id love to stay longer and debate more.

2) Curt said "Also, I don’t believe that by nature men (and women) are by nature “sinful and unclean”.

Neither do I. But do u believe that by nature we are always sineless and clean? what about a well meaning, good father, concentration camp attendant?

In fact I believe that we when we are born (our nature, whenever that starts being tainted) we are pretty much clean and sinless.

"Our nature is the sum total of our personalities. our culture is the sum total of our ACTUALITITES" Carrol Quigly...

humans are limited though. we are not just 'confined to nature' cause we have culture... Ill not say anymore cause that on its own is a huge field of Inquiry. but lets just say on that point I completely agree with you.. but no way does my agreement disregard 'sin'.

2) It's nice to feel 'comfortable' in any thing.. does that mean one shouldn't have the impulse to differentiate right from wrong? or mistakes from correctness? I'm sure millions who do jobs like sex and porn industry, arms industry, and those who use subliminal marketing to target babies and make them nice little consumers from a young age are also very 'comfortable' and have no need for 'self flagellation'.. the only real measure of 'comfort' for an atheist or nihilist is their own self pursuit of whatever makes them happy til the day they are finished (hence the terms.. 'live life to the max'.. 'enjoy it while u can' and other verses that match that too in the Quran.. living their desires and their pleasures.. and even if their 'country's 'law' restricts that.. well.. they'll always find a way round it..

3) curt said: "I hope he loves both you and me for the content of our characters, not what direction we kneel to ask him or her favors in"

You could truly say that because maybe you do feel some form of spiritual guidance and are content that you are an upstanding individual who does things right.

But lets use Emmanuel Kant's formula here for universality, which is pretty much a fundamental premise of all libertarian morality. Make this Maxim universal, apply it to everyone.. now does that work out? Can EVERYONE hope for his love for the content of their characters?.. not really.. cause not everyone is like you Craig.. Do you honestly believe that everyone has the 'right' content of Character??.. and despite the shoddy image and misunderstanding of religious people from all faiths.. Kneeling and prostrating is not a means to whimper for favors.. its a symbol of humility and meditation.. its a symbol of submission only...its a time of reflection and cleanliness where one discards the conscious reality.. If we believe there is a God, how stupid are we believing that we need to ask and cry before he gets to actually know what we want????

4) Curt.. about this point exactly.. please read my previous post.. you have to know that 'ISLAM' today is nothing more than a 'culture' ..sadly.. its lost it dialectical meaning.

5) "I'm cool with that H. If I have to stand in front of the Big guy or gal some day, I'm willing to let my life stand for itself. I don't need some self proclaimed holy man to tell me when I've screwed up. I know that much for myself. And I've done it plenty. Anyone that says otherwise is a liar."

I agree with you completely Curt, Apart from the silly way in which u dismiss the Divine as big guy or gal, but it's your call lol. We attach no moral form, substance or gender. "He" is only for simplicity, Ockham's Razor finished that argument ages ago. In fact, what you said is repeated throughout the Quran. I can get you the verses should u wish but this is just a blog comment for now lol.

6) "Having said that. I don't think that making mistakes makes me evil. It only makes me human. Knowingly not correcting your mistakes and then repeating them may mean that you are evil."

Completely true too. I am really happy that your reasoning is spot on. Again, the Quran also verifies this claim.

7) With regards to Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I have not read the book. Neither do I intend to read the Book. She reads the Quran with a cultural viewing glass (if she does that is, rather than just taking ayat out of it that she only understand shallowley) not the dialctics of the Quran. She is a politician with an Agenda, who get's paid by establishments, much like all other 'scholars' that are involved in this rat race, (including mainstream muslim clerics turned politicians and 'mufti's).. she suffered at thehands of cultural goons and shes discovered a good paying, glamourous career in 'battling' this culture.. good for her..

Marquis d'Argenson summarized efforts like Ayaan's very succinctly; "Learned research on public right is often nothing more than the history of ancient abuses, and taking a lot of trouble to study them too closely gets one no-where"

8) Now if you were to take my points to another Muslim they'd probably say NOPE. HES wrong. YES MUSLIMS ARE BETTER lol.. and u ask them how better and they’ll be like.. "uh don't know".. you ask them just a simple question.. what is Islam?.. and they’ll probably gawk at u.. or maybe recite to u five 'pillars' whom the majority don’t keep cause the 'routine' is simply 'hard to follow in this day and age….but that just shows a shallow understanding.. he/she probably has never truly reflected constantly on the link between the faith they hold and the actions it commands and the actions they do. Sadly, Islam today is an 'exclusive' cultural identity for a group that has completely usurped knowledge for their own power..

Strangely, I am only begging to understand the nature of Islam from three sources and three sources only. Everything else is either complementary wisdom or meddlesome lies and cultural artifacts.

They are:

1) The Quran
2) Marx (communism and material dialectics is the antithesis of Islam.. shame Hegel died before he made the link)
3) Romanticist philosophy (which was crushed by totalitarian Hobbsian 'state' philosophy and the subsequent modern industrial revolution til today)

Salam to all

mani said...

salam again

correction to an earlier post:

I wrote :

"Our nature is the sum total of our personalities. our culture is the sum total of our ACTUALITITES" Carrol Quigly...

It should read

"Our nature is the sum total of our potentialities. our personalities are the sum total of our ACTUALITITES (culture)" Carrol Quigly...

mani said...

salam Maya..

1) nice to know that its convention for you to agree with curt and craig

2)Islam against everybody else??..um.. no.. thats what people who believe in the 'clash' of civilisations want u to think.. what u meant by that was 'MUSLIMS against everybody else'.. Islam is a differnt matter altogethor... one of the biggest mistake any human can do is judge an idea by its followers.. no matter how many or how indoctrinated they are..

3) Obviously because u confuse 'Islam' with 'Muslims' then u are right.. you didn’t understand what I said

4) "But how can you state that the Koran doesn't give fewer rights to non-Muslims? Perhaps you haven't read the book? It tells Muslims to have no rest until all we non-Muslims are converted, subjected to dhimmi status or murdered."

That’s just complete bull, excuse the term.. go to the Quran and find that out for me. And what do u understand by 'rights'.. what are rights? .. no rest until all muslims are non converted???????.. conversion isn’t even a mulsim's mandate!!!!!!! DHIMMI STATUS????? the word isn’t even in the Quran!!!! .DHIMMA just means personal integrity in the Quran and its only mentioned TWICE…LOL@ I haven’t read the book. No matter how much I read of it, it never ever fails to give more knowledge and insight alhamdulillah..... we will not rest til ur converted, dhimmified or murdered???? LOLOL.. that sounds to me like ur reading mainstream media not the Quran.. yes the Quran does have some pretty vivid and horrific scenery between believers and disbelievers.. but they don’t fall into the categories u think.. it’s a much higher issue… and I will not talk about 'right' until you urself tell me what u think is meant by 'rights'..

Interestingly… those who will not rest till we are converted, dhimmified or murdered seems more like the American democratization mission in Iraq to me.. and other modernization and military campaigns by America and its allies since WW2 all over the globe.. reflect on that a bit..

Your just talking about wahabi Islam, sunni Islam, Salafi Islam, Shia Islam, Sufi Islam, .. and God forbid that they represent Islam.. they all represent their own will to power,, all wishing to subjugate the knowledge that God brought to all prophets to their own authority and 'kingship'..

peace

mani said...

damn sorry curt I confused you with craig..

darn it..

soz again :)

salam

Curt from Houston said...

"But dont worry about your saftey when you visit a Muslim Country. Our religion says."

I'll make sure to keep that in mind the next time I visit Mecca. :-)

programmer craig said...

Hi Mani,

I don't have time to answer all the issues you raised right now, but I want to challenge you on one point and I'll come back and respond in more detail later.


sorry to burst the bubble but that’s completely untrue.. you may have gotten that from some ahadith but that’s not the Quran.

It must be in the Quran because teh Quran is all that I have read, I know nothing about Islam except what's in the Quran :)

Does the Quran not say that a Muslim who murders a Muslim will be damned for eternity? What's the penalty for murdering a non-Muslim? I didn't read that bit. I'll assume that there is a penalty. Why the differentiation, though? Why is teh penalty for murdering a Muslim different than murdering a non-Muslim?

Sorry, Mani. That's bigotry. On a worldly matter, not a spiritual one. And it's in the Quran.

That's one example. I can and will bring up many more, if you wish.

Anyway, I'll be back later on. Interesting discussion :)

Curt from Houston said...

Mani, Please read Ayn Rand for the answers to your questions. She answers them much better than I could.

programmer craig said...

Highlander (and Curt)

Does that mean we should revise the Gospel/Bible/New Testament/Old Testament/Torah to show this inclusion that not only the Christian will go to Heaven but also the Jews and the Muslims ? what do you think ?

I can't speak for Jewsih scripture, but the New Testament says nothing about "christians" whatsoever. The word doesn't even appear in the text of the New Testament as it didn't exist as a concept at the time. This si a common misconception. The idea that salvation is exclusive to Christians is dogma and doctrine that was evolved by the early Catholic and Orthodox Churches. That's what most Christians believe, I admit, but that doesn't make it so. I rejected the idea that only Christians could achieve grace when I was 5 or 6 years old. Even at that age it seemed incompatible with my concept of God. When I was a teenager I went through the Bible looking for where that idea comes from, and I was pleased to find it has no scriptural basis. Most Christians think that when Jesus says words to the effect that "there is no path to heaven except through me" that means people have to be Christian to get to heaven. Nonsense. Jesus is the Judge on Judgement Day. That's what he meant. He is the one who decides. He states his criteria for judging several times in the New Testament, and he never mentions Christians. It's perfectly feasible that a non-Christian could meet his criteria. Most Christians would not, based on my observations :)

Curt from Houston said...

"With regards to Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I have not read the book. Neither do I intend to read the Book. She reads the Quran with a cultural viewing glass...

Not much of an excuse. I've read Mein Kamph and the writings of Carl Marx and Mau Tse Tung just so that I know the mind set. Nowhere in Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book do I find a similar ideology.

mani said...

Salam Craig

I got your email from your profile

I didn't want to do this on the blog as I didn't want to get on Highlander's nerves

I appreciate very much our discussion

please find attached a 190 page document (should u wish to read, or have the time to do so) that should dispel 99% of the misconceptions u have about the 'bigotry' in Islam.

I am sorry for its length but the length is required to weed out, reply to and erase so many inaccuracies that the concept of submission to God (Islam) has suffered at the hands of the Arab 'Muslims' and other 'religions'.

Its title is 'Apostasy and Killing in Islam' by a respected Quranic scholar who was ostracized out of Egypt by the despotic 'Islamic' schools of thought who were after his life.. he now lives in America.

Apostasy is important too as it links the greater question of choice and rights.. including the choice to 'apostate' which the majority of Muslim clergy believe is punishable by death.. complete and utter lies on God, may he be exalted over their lies.

I will reply very shortly to your post on Highlander's blog to acknowledge your response, again which I appreciate very much... maybe this same email.

Your comment about Christians "The idea that salvation is exclusive to Christians is dogma and doctrine that was evolved by the early Catholic and Orthodox Churches" is exactly the same type of error that we are trying to clarify here.

Before humans started being meddlesome in the divine scriptures, God was God, and Submission to Him was submission to Him.. and in Arabic thats just called Islam.. difference is we retained the word....the message of Jesus PBUH, which was also Islam, was called Christianity.. making Christ an exclusive divinity.. much the same as Muslims were called Muhammadan's by middle age Orientalists and Europeans.

I do not know what version of Quranic translation u are using but no-where does the Quran say "a Muslim who murders a Muslim will be damned for eternity" the only verse where it talks about 'believers' killing believers' is in the case mistake, and it lays out three jurisprudences to rectify such problems by analysing the contexts in which they fall (negligent homicide).. that includes societies whom have peaceful treaties witch each other. individual killing in Islam is completely refuted and repulsed except in the collective case of defense against aggression for which the law of 'retaliation' is the ONLY Quranic injunction and that is the rights of ALL living under this social contract (the Quran). Apart from these, Killing is rejected in the Quran when it forbids the killing of the nafs (the arbitary definition of SOUL, which everyone has) except in the case of injunction (legal retaliation), which in the case of individual murder is NOT the mandate of the state, but the decision of the family of the unjustly murdered as they are always encouraged to forgive by either mercy or acceptance of blood money).. see here.. no Muslims, non-Muslim story whatsoever...

For all the verses of the Quran and analysis that supprt this little summary and much much more in depth (but enjoyable) analysis, please refer to the attached document.

and I would be very happy to continue this discussion were it not the exam season :)

I really do encourage you to read this document in all honesty. I would love nothing more to share with the dearest of brothers like yourself than this.

I will post this too on Highlander's blog maybe someone else would request it..

Thank you again and it was great getting to know you and hopefully I get to know u more.. no one understands binary distnictions better than programmers.. lololololol

Peace, Mani

mani said...

Salam Curt

1) Its Main Kampf

2) its Karl Marx

3) Ok the third one could be Mao or Mau lol ill let that one go .. I mean.. Gaddafi is spelt either Ghatafi or Qaddafi, or Kathafi.. the NYT even thought him not only the most eccentric but with the most ecccentric name lol, spelt offcially more than 27 diff ways.. we in Libya think so too.. anyway.. back to the subject ..hehehe

4) I dont read to know the mindset. I read to get at the ideas.. if u were looking at the mindset for Ayaan though im sure u could get that from the press, unlike Marx for example...when I have time for her I will read her..although in Ayyans case, her ideas seem to take second place to her media image..she is certainly no scholar... besides her attacks are not new.. just a fresh womanly face that the media can parade around in its Islamophobic attacks.. I'm not saying it's not readable.. I'm just saying there are other more readable things.. are you comparing Marx, Hitler or Mao to Ayaan?.. they were devilish geniuses.. shes just an attention seeker.

5) Um.. lets go this way now.. although I haven't read them but I am also meaning to.. how about reading some holocaust revisionism? David Irving for example? or even Robert Faurisson??.. does that send some chills up some spines???

6) I still don't know what u mean by a similar ideology?

salam curt

mani said...

HAHAHAHAHH.. curt.. i gotta apologise for my selfish sarcasm.. the last laughs on me.. I wrote Main Kampf to correct urs.. and I made a bigger botch of it .. damn hitler lol


right.. its MEIN KAMPF...issat better?.. yeah .. think so.. lol..

im soo red now hehehe

salam

Maya M said...

Mani, when I wrote Islam I meant Islam. Not Muslims. Muslims are victims of Islam, usually indoctrinated before being fully verbal. Besides, many people calling themselves Muslims are in fact heretics and apostates. They cannot say freely who they are because they risk not only saddening their grandmas but also saying goodbye to their lives, as the Abdulrahman case recently showed.
Here are the Koran citations. I must really collect them in a file because I am tired of finding them anew every time a Muslim or Western peacenik opponent requests them.
8.12. Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
8:38 Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).
8:39 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
9.5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
(This is for non-Christians, non-Jews - they aren't given the option of dhimmitude.)
9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
(This is about dhimmitude. It doesn't matter that the term isn't there.)
After all this and much more of the same, AngloLibyan wonders why some Britons think Muslims are bad people! After all, for many Britons July 7 and July 21 were the equivalent of "Islam for Dummies".

Highlander said...

Maya I think you missed a comment above my Mani to Programmer Craig .

Mani can you please email me the 190 page document ? my email is my profile but here it is again : frommyrock@yahoo.com

Maya M said...

Mani, about Hirsi Ali - if you were a woman, I would accuse you in deliberately unfair attack against an opponent. But I think you just don't understand the woman's mind. A "glamourous career" is not what a woman wants most, though many women don't mind it. A woman, above all, wants to meet and marry Prince Charming and to raise babies in a happy home. If a woman is deprived of this, nothing can be an adequate compensation. Can you imagine Hirsi Ali dating somebody? Who will accept the risk of living with her? Which adoption agency will give her a child who can be exploded at any time by a bomb meant for Mom? You talk as if being a target of Islamist murderers is a party.

Maya M said...

Highlander, I guess you mean Mani's assertion that the Koran talks about "believers" and "unbelievers" and not about "Muslims" and "non-Muslims"? In fact, I don't remember seeing the term "Muslim" in the Koran - I'm not sure it wasn't there altogether, but generally Muslims were called Believers. Words aren't so important, thoughts are. Personally for me it doesn't matter, because I am an unbeliever under any standard.
Mani, you are right that I am very pro-USA and approve the US democratization wars in Iraq and Vietnam and Korea as well as WWII, which you exclude for a reason unknown to me. The Iraq war seems to have been a mistake, but a noble mistake: the belief that other people, even if differing from us in skin colour, language and religion, have the same rights and virtues and are able to fulfil the same obligations. Unfortunately, in this case it was the racists that were right. I think Muslim opponents of the Iraq war don't even suspect how racist most Western war opponents are. Oh, they talk about US aggression and occupation and international law, but what they really think (and often say privately) is: Arabs haven't minds as good as ours, they need a butcher like Saddam to rule them, just try to give them freedom and democracy and they'll immediately start killing you, each other and everybody else in sight.

mani said...

peace again

cant resist capitalizing on ur statement maya in another sense

for 3/4 of the world, the Iraq 'mistake' was "democracy for dummies"

peace

programmer craig said...

Wow I'm so far behind in this conversation now I'm not sure I'll be able to get up to speed :(

Thanks for the e-mail, Mani. I'll get back to you here and in the email as well, ASAP.

Maya M said...

"Sanity is not statistical."
George Orwell, 1984

Highlander said...

1984 was so scary Maya !