Thursday, July 27, 2006

The Greater Middle East or the New Middle East.

Arabs, non Arabs, Muslims and non-Muslims in the Middle-East are skeptical about the Western promises of assistance with democracy and US administration’s apparent change of heart / policies and encouragement of democracy. This is because to this day the Western world, which is now represented in their eyes (mistakenly) by the US, still seems to be advocating the strategy exhorted by the colonialist powers in the early 20th century and highlighted by Carra de Vaux in May 1901, originally published in "questions diplomatiques et coloniales ' p.588. English version quoted in Buheiry 1989,p.114 :





"I believe that we should endeavour to split the Muslim world, to break its
moral unity, using to this effect the ethnic and political division [.] Let us
therefore accentuate these differences, in order to increase on the one hand
national sentiment [...] and to decrease on the other that of religious
community [...] among the various Muslim races. Let us take advantage of
political conditions".

Following WWI, the Treaties of Sevres (1920) and Lausanne (1922-23) basically liquidated the Ottoman Empire - which was the Muslim Empire at that time - making Iraq, Palestine and what is now Jordan, British mandates , while Syria and what is now known as Lebanon became French mandates.

The 21st century witnessed the rise of rhetoric about a 'Greater Middle East'.


"On 19 February 2004, the London-based Arabic newspaper Al-Hayat published a
"leaked" US-compiled document that became known as the Greater Middle East
Initiative (GMEI)[..]The original document, intended for internal distribution
among designated senior officials of the G8 (group of eight industrialised
countries), was meant to signal a new US plan for reform of the Middle East and
some other Muslim-majority countries such as Pakistan, Iran and Turkey. "


This author seems to agree with me :


“The United States has given Israel a free rein because it is confronted with
the probability of two highly disagreeable developments: a nuclear-armed Iran
and a humiliating defeat in Iraq. It urgently needs to regain the initiative in
the wider Middle East and has persuaded itself - or been persuaded by Israel's
friends inside and outside the Administration -- that Israel can help it do so.
The pro-Israeli neocons in the U.S have been trumpeting that a victory for
Israel in Lebanon will be a victory for the United States, and a defeat for
Israel will be a defeat for the United States.The situation is complicated by a
further layer of conflict. The Arab oil producers in the Gulf dread an upset in
the regional power balance. They want to continue enjoying their great wealth
under the umbrella of American protection. These Gulf regimes fear a dominant
Iran and an assertive Shi'ism. This may explain their astonishing passivity in
the face of Israel's aggression.Israel's indifference to Arab life risks
convincing many young Arabs that long-term coexistence with Israel is not
possible. Arab intellectuals are increasingly expressing the view that Israel is
a colonial state, which must eventually disappear, as Europe's colonial empires
did in their time. At their summit meeting in Beirut in March 2002, all the Arab
states declared their readiness to establish normal peaceful relations with
Israel within its 1967 borders. But Israel, intent on expanding its borders,
rejected the offer. It must surely be time for Israel to think again. The offer
may still be on the table.”

Mark my words this relationship will be discarded once Israel is not needed anymore.

The US administration has draped the mantle of the champion of the West, it is furthermore applying pressure to get on with the project of the GMEI. In order to achieve this , Lebanon must be destroyed to start with a clean slate and to get the two remaining opponents Syria and Iran to capitulate. Funnily enough only recently like 5 years ago (I think ) Syria was not an enemy of the US but it has been slowly pushed to align itself with Iran after the Iraq invasion and its alleged interverntion in Iraq. Iraq one of the strongest Arab countries is already destroyed as we know it. It’s people once they get over their civil war will be too busy to build their country and work off the huge debt accumulated. They are not likely to make any decisions for themselves and they are brainwashed into thinking that the other Arab countries do not really care. That leaves the Gulf states and KSA , I hope I am proven wrong but I believe they will never lift a finger for the ME. Look at Qatar, the smart anti-bunker missiles that the US is rushing to Israel will allegedly be shipped from there.
Israel cannot afford to stop it’s momentum now because God only knows if it would ever have another similar perfect opportunity.

The North African states are too far as well and busy with their own set of problems, plus any marching army will be detected immediately along with any movement of equipment. And anyway where is that equipment purchased from ? Yep it will be used opposite that the of the Israelis.

To demonstrate that the west is still acting in terms of what Carra de Vaux advocated , let us look at this little study called : 'US strategy in the Muslim world after 9/11'.


"U.S. Air Force asked RAND Project AIR FORCE (PAF) to study the trends that are
most likely to affect U.S. interests and security in the Muslim
world"

This is an excerpt of what they came up with :

"[…] certain divisions cut across the Muslim world and have implications for
U.S. interests and strategy:

Sunnis and Shi’ites. The majority of
Muslims are Sunni. Shi’ites, who number about 15 percent of the world’s Muslims,
are dominant in Iran and are politically excluded majorities in Bahrain and the
eastern province of Saudi Arabia, as they were in Iraq prior to the removal of
Saddam. The United States may have an opportunity to align its policy with
Shi’ite groups, who aspire to have more participation in government and greater
freedoms of political and religious expression. If this alignment can be brought
about, it could erect a barrier against radical Islamic movements and may create
a foundation for a stable U.S. position in the Middle East.

[…]
problem is that shiites also have a history of 'radical' Islam ex Iran
.

Arab and non-Arab Muslims. Arabs constitute about 20 percent of
the world’s Muslims. The Arab world exhibits a higher incidence of economic,
social, and political disorders than other regions of the so-called developing
world. By contrast, non-Arab sectors of the Muslim world are more politically
inclusive, boast the majority of democratic or partially democratic governments,
and are more secular in outlook. Although the Middle East has traditionally been
regarded as the “core” of the Muslim world, it appears that the center of
gravity may be shifting to non-Arab sectors. The most innovative and
sophisticated thinking about Islam is taking place in areas outside the Arab
world such as Southeast Asia and in the diaspora communities of the West. The
United States should pay attention to these progressive developments because
they can counter the more extreme interpretations of Islam held in some parts of
the Arab world.

Ethnic communities, tribes, and clans. The failure
to understand tribal politics was one of the underlying causes of the
catastrophic U.S. involvement in Somalia. Ten years later, the U.S. government
still knows very little about Muslim tribal dynamics in areas where U.S. forces
are or may be operating. As the United States pursues an activist policy in
disturbed areas of the world, it will be critical to understand and learn to
manage subnational and tribal issues. [..]


Engage Muslim
diasporas. Diaspora communities are a gateway to networks and may be helpful in
advancing U.S. values and interests. The United States, for instance, can work
with Muslim nongovernment organizations in responding to humanitarian
crises.

Rebuild close military-to-military relations with key
countries. Military establishments will continue to be influential political
actors across the Muslim world. Therefore, military-to-military relations will
be of particular importance to any U.S. shaping strategy in the Muslim world.
Rebuilding a core of U.S.-trained officers in key Muslim countries is a critical
need. Programs such as International Military Education and Training (IMET) not
only ensure that future military leaders are exposed to American military values
and practices but can also translate into increased U.S. influence and
access.

Build appropriate military capabilities. The United States
faces a need to reduce the more obvious aspects of its military presence in
sensitive areas of the Muslim world, while working to increase different types
of presence (e.g., intelligence, psychological operations, and civil affairs
such as medical assistance). The U.S. military should improve its cultural
intelligence through more Arab, Persian, and African regional and language
specialists."




If you read the research in full you will find that it does contain a lot of positive aspects. Here is the pdf version. But In comparing it with the 1901 document I find it telling that over one hundred years later the leopard (though a different one) has not changed its spots. Wrapped in beautiful resounding words it is still all about interest and security and not idealism.


The ‘positive aspects’ which would be democracy, investment etc… are merely the honey pot designed to entrap the gullible masses but also an attempt to have a clearer conscience and give something in return. After all it is better to have a happy population with whom you can trade than a devastated angry mob or a depopulated ME from which you would simply mine resources. We are in the age where although force is important but this kind of action cannot be justified as overtly as in past centuries, unless you can get the opponent to fire at you first.


Baron Carra de Vaux is an eminent respected orientalist who has extensively studied Muslims and the Arab world , you can google his works yourself they are strewn all over the place and are very rich, but it is interesting that he was an important lecturer at the SOCIETE DES ETUDES JUIVES which was the 'Society for the study of Jewish history and literature, and especially of the history and literature of the Jews of France; its headquarters being in Paris. This society was founded in 1880, chiefly through the efforts of Baron James Edouard de Rothschild [and others]" , while the Rothschild family has well known ties to Zionism.

If I was a conspiracy theorist I would have made the link in my head and stated : “It’s the joooooooooooooos (© Sandmonkey) !” but I will only ask the readers for two things (1) to come to their own conclusions, and (2) to explain to me peacefully if there is a different idea re. 1901 and 2004 ?

94 comments:

Adam said...

Wow! Higlander, Your Blog Rocks!

”Mark my words this relationship will be discarded once Israel is not needed anymore.”
Now there’s a good piece of original thinking at last! An idea that is certainly worth pondering.

”In order to achieve this [GMEI], Lebanon must be destroyed to start with a clean slate and to get the two remaining opponents Syria and Iran to capitulate.”
I too question the motives of why they are destroying the entire Lebanon when they say that HB is the enemy. This line of thinking makes perfect sense to me, and I bet other Euro-softies agree.

Funnily enough only recently like 5 years ago (I think) Syria was not an enemy of the US but it has been slowly pushed to align itself with Iran after the Iraq invasion and its alleged intervention in Iraq.
Syria has certainly been systematically degraded in our [yes western] rhetoric, from its former “good-guyness”. But I am not sure I agree with you that they were deliberately pushed by us [yes the west] into alliance with Iran. I would only agree if you mean that the increasing alienation indirectly lead to strengthening of this new alliance.

And good guys went to bad. Those bearded guys in Afghanistan were heroes during the cold war but now they are bad, real bad, but get this: they are the same dudes. Saddam went from our ally to real bad. But that decision had been made before he invaded Iraq. He was tricked into to invading according to really abundant sources…

(Google this: April Glaspie, U.S. ambassador to Iraq is summoned to meet with Saddam: "We don't have much to say about Arab-Arab differences, like your border differences with Kuwait. ... All we hope is you solve these matters quickly." But suddenly we had a lot to say. He was tricked!)

And this guy within the proximity, went from OK to real bad to good. I really don’t know what Q gave to W, but I bet it was more than his word and some cash! And I would be really glad to hear thoughts on that.

And this last change I find as a highly interesting example. Because I really believe that if you have a good negotiating position*, you can easily win over your over your enemy by pacifying him, and with little bit of maybe not so gentle persuasion. No need to destroy innocent countries.

( *if you are a super-power )

shlemazl said...

"Mark my words this relationship will be discarded once Israel is not needed anymore."

Perhaps, although having met quite a few Americans I doubt it.

Still Israel is there to stay as some Arab countries have learned over the years. The sooner the rest of Muslims come to terms with this the better for everyone.

US had not had a special relationship with Israel until after the 6-day war, but somehow ... Israel survived.

programmer craig said...

Highlaner, I get a headache reading posts like this :)

You mistake European policy in teh ME of a hundred years ago for current US policy. It's not!

Also, you are falling into the Europeans "trap" again! European policy is to support Arabs/Muslims in the middle east, against the United States and/or Israel. They want to be seen as the "good guys" no matter how much it hurts America. Why?

Virtually everything you quote and refence is a smear job of US policy, meant to make the US look bad with Arabs/Muslims, and the Europeans look good.

I'm disgusted by the whole thing, myself. That's not what US policy is, and that's not what US goals are.

In order to achieve this , Lebanon must be destroyed to start with a clean slate and to get the two remaining opponents Syria and Iran to capitulate.

We don't want Lebanon destroyed, we want Hezbollah destroyed. It has always been so, and it will always be so.

Yes. We want Hezbollah's masters destroyed as well. It has nothing to do with Lebanon. It has everything to do with Iran and it's proxies. The end game is the destruction of the Islamic Republic of Iran. Everything else people say, on any side of the discussion, is bullshit. Everybody but arabs/msulims knows what is really going on.

By the way. Syria has never been a "friend" of the United States. Syria has been an enemy of the United States as long as I've been alive. I think you make the mistake of thinking that the fact that Syria successfully blackmailed America a few times, and the fact that dirty deals were strucka few times, for a good relationship. It's not now and it has not been for the last 30 years.

I've argued with Europeans and Arabs before about this idea Syria used to be a freind of the US. I have no clue where they get that from, but US policy towarsd seria has always been hostile, as far back as I can remember. I think such statements must be agenda driven, because they have no basis in fact. People want to accuse Bush of destroying relationship that has never actually existed.

programmer craig said...

OK one thing I forgot to comment on which is very important :)

The US is not now and never has supported Arab nationalism over Islam. They are both equally bad as far as the US is concerned. The US would never do that, and never has (in my opinion) done that. We don't want a totalitarian state or an islamic state. We want secular liberal democracy. It's the only hope of winning the war on terror without killing millions of people.

Highlander said...

Actually Programmer _Craig , allow me to correct you , the US has supported Islam over Arab nationalism in the past as the 'natural' antagonist to communism in the ME , problem is this strategy has backfired :(

Schlemazl - first time I see you on my blog ..thanks for visiting - just curious how did end up here ?

programmer craig said...

OK! One more comment re: The Carnigie link:


The Bush administration is preparing to launch a "Greater Middle East Initiative" at the G-8 summit meeting in June. The plan is to bring the United States, Europe, and the Middle East together around a set of commitments to help transform the region politically and economically.

How in the world are the US, Europe and the Middle East supposed to work together on anything? This is a ridiculous statement on it's face. The US cannot even work co-operatively with Europe on anything. Let alone the middle east. Europe is in opposition to the US, across the board. America and teh US are working at cross purposes. And not just in the ME. The Europeans seek to improve their position in the ME, at the expense of the US.

The time is indeed opportune for engagement on regional reform, but as planned, the initiative fails to establish a basis for genuine partnership and does little to address the real challenges of Arab democratization.

Genuine partnership? There is no partnership, period, genuine or not!

The administration should rethink its approach and start a new process of genuine consultations to come to an agreement on how all three sides can work cooperatively to address the regional problems that threaten the security of Arab societies and the West.

The administration can re-think it's approach from now til doomsday, tehre's not going to be a co-operative effort involving Europe, US, and the ME.

It's impossible. And furthermore, arabs don't even want what the Bush administration claims to want for them, anyway. How can Bush be serious about promoting democracy ina region where the majority of people want Sharia law?

Nope,. The only partnership on the horizon is the one Europeans are trying to create with arabs, founded on the principal that America and Israel are the source of all arab problems.

And, Highlander, you wonder how the euro bastards managed to colonize the whole world? Same old tricks.

programmer craig said...

Highlander,

the US has supported Islam over Arab nationalism in the past as the 'natural' antagonist to communism in the ME , problem is this strategy has backfired :(

What is that comment in reference to? Afghanistan?

I don't agree. The US supported whoever was willing to fight the soviets. That just so happened to be jihadis in Afghanistan. We (the US) didn't support the mujahedeen because they were muslims, we did so because they were rebels.

Adam said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Adam said...

They want to be seen as the "good guys" no matter how much it hurts America. Why?

In the case of France for example such rhethoric often is directed towards their domestic public opinion, methinks. They too know their Machiavelli. (They believe that it) it will win votes. Perhaps it will, but it is a gamble.

Whilst I may agree with some of their fine words, I pretty much doubt that they have humanitarian motives. Oh those leaders too are human beings, to some degree they probably believe their own words, but on a subconcious level, those polls are in the back of their minds.

Ah well, just another theory.

tommy said...

Uh-boy! What a website you've linked to! This is about as conspiratorial as it gets! I used to be mildly interested in this kind of stuff when I was a teenager, until I found out what a bunch of garbage it all was.

You know it is bad when they start talking about the Rothschilds. LoL. Where are the Rockefellers, the Oppenheimers, the DuPonts, and the Astors, and all the other shady European and American families? Just the Rothschilds, huh?

Where is the Trilateral Commission and the Bilderberg Group? Don't forget the Skull and Bones Society. What! Nothing about the Council on Foreign Relations!?! Lol.

9/11 was a hoax, huh? It was all about oil. Dang, Exxon and Co. must be the most conspiratorial companies in the world. Of course, the site insists it isn't trying to promote conspiracies. Sure.

Then there are the half-truths about the CIA. Yes, the CIA did experiment with hallucinogens and the like in the 1960s. This was revealed during the Church Committee. The idea that the CIA engages in Satanic ritual abuse, child prostitution, and similar weirdness is an old hoax dating from the 1980's.

Then there are the inconvenient facts about Hurricane Katrina that aren't discussed. Of course, the response to Katrina is said to reflect the desire to "whiten" up New Orleans. In reality, whites, while a minority in New Orleans, were actually disproportionately (you remember that word, don't you?) affected by Hurricane Katrina. It is unlikely that the Hurricane is going to result in a much whiter New Orleans. (Though it may add some Mexicans.)

That is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to bizarre nonsense on this site.

No wonder you are so paranoid about US intentions, Highlander. These sort of conspiracy theories are bound to creep you out. Especially if you don't understand how incredibly stupid they are.

shlemazl said...

"Schlemazl - first time I see you on my blog ..thanks for visiting - just curious how did end up here ?"

Non-Blogging suggested that I should visit. How much do you pay him? I did visit, but found that you had little to say that actually made sense and did not like the way you said it.

Non-Blogging said...

Shlemazl,

I didn't ask for any payment so far. I deny everything.

Guys, should I open a PayPal account?

Nope.

Because I'm not hungry for money, I think even a fan poster of Highlander would be enough for a commission ;-). Send me one by attachment? Or a bottle of the finest illegal Libyan firewater? That's the stuff we Finns love the best LOL.

removedalready said...

Prog Craig:

I know the Americans & the Israelis want the Hezbollah destroyed but at the same the Israelis are destroying Lebanon. Lebanon is being attacked every day, more and more lives lost, innocent lives, PC not Hezbollah. They (Hezbollah) do not mind being killed by the Israeli army. Do you know that? It would considered the death of a martyr.

Shahid (Arabic: شهيد šahīd, plural: شهداء šuhadā’) is a religious-Muslim term, that literally means "witness". It is a title that is given to the Muslim after his death, if he died during fulfillment of a religious commandment, or during a war for the religion. In the Arab world, this term is used as title to soldiers who were killed during filling their duty (so it is acceptable also among the Israeli Druses regarding to the Druse fallen IDF soldiers). Among the Palestinians this term is used as a title to Palestinians who were killed in the Intifada, and especially as a title to suicide bombers (the Palestinians call to their suicide attacks عمليّات استشهاديّة, meaning, actions in which someone become shaheed).

Mitchell said...

PC - the relationship between the West and political Islam started decades before the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. This article makes 1953 (the year after Nasser came to power) a turning point, but you could keep going back to FDR's WW2 meeting with Ibn Saud, or I suppose even the WW1 agreement which made Saudi territory a British protectorate.

Highlander said...

Adam, NBA, REd_Enclave, Programmer_Craig and Tommy will forgive me if I don't reply to them immediately :) => * insert gesture of me praying you would here guys *

However, Schlemazl is a newbie so I'm gonna address him ...

so Schlemazl you read one post , (in the way you it suits you I may add) and think that you know everything there is to know about Highlander? oh boy it's a lost cause eh ? you have not figured out that I'm asking questions aloud here ? instead of dismissing them in a patronizing way - you could stick around , explain, discuss and try to win me over. If I just repeat what other bloggers you agree with it won't be fun nor challenging would it - I'm sure that's not what you are looking for another yes man/woman ? Still thanks for visiting and just know that you will be welcome again, this blog is open to all ; most of my readers don't agree with me just ask them ;)

NBA you want a poster ;) ? lol how will you convince me ?

Non-Blogging said...

NBA you want a poster ;) ? lol how will you convince me ?

Yep. And I just checked my e-mail and didn't yet see it attached. Now I'll start a violently peaceful Euro-softie hatemongering campaign against you (perhaps I'll cry myself first).

Or perhaps the file is too large so it's stranded in the spam folder ;-). And if you sent any firewater, it's stranded in the Finnish customs. They take these things extremely seriously, believe me.

It's not about convincing you, it's about deserving that present hahaha.

Or better still, why not for example offer an all inclusive tour of Libya for the first one of your readers who has recruited ten newbies here?

Now, nine more to go... What's the best season in Libya for somebody used to cold climate? LOL

Highlander said...

September and October NBA :) will you send your poster first ;) - if you recruit 9 more and bring them all to Libya I will give you the Highlander tour !

Highlander said...

Mitchell I did not mean to exclude you by the way when I listed the other reads 3 comments above . Thanks for sticking by !

Non-Blogging said...

Highlander,

You have here an entire gallery of NBA fan posters to decorate your wall:

http://eu.art.com/asp/display-asp/_/id--2116/NBA.htm

The one titled Male Nude I is the one most reminiscent of me, at least I have all the body parts he does LOL.

Adam said...

Mitchell:
Thanks for that link on Arab/US history. Nice to broaden the perspective somtimes.

and oh Tommy:
I think we need not fear that Highlander swallows any of that Rothschild crap. She [perhaps] couldn't resist teasin' us a little.

programmer craig said...

Hi Red ENclave,

I know the Americans & the Israelis want the Hezbollah destroyed but at the same the Israelis are destroying Lebanon.

I realzie that, yes, Red Enclave. There has never been a war fought yet where the innocent have been safe.

Lebanon is being attacked every day, more and more lives lost, innocent lives, PC not Hezbollah.

Hezbollah is dying too.

They (Hezbollah) do not mind being killed by the Israeli army. Do you know that? It would considered the death of a martyr.

Yes. And we should encourage them to all become martyrs. Every single one of them. To the last man.

I don't mind Hezbollah being killed by Israelis either. I wouldn't even mind Hezbollah being killed by Americans.

To further illustrate the divide between the US and Europe, I offer my obeservations that European diplomats have unanimously refused to call Hezbollah a terrorist group on American TV. At least, on the shows I have watched. And it seems they are cheering Hezbollah on. Every tiem Hezbollah has any sort of success, tehy point out what a disaster for Israel their reaction is. And how much more support Hezbollah is gaining in the Arab world. They want Israel to lose. Militarily and politically. To Hezbollah. There is no doubt in my mind.

Bush said 5 years ago: You're with us or you're with the terrorists.

Europe is with the terrorists.

This conflict is the proof.

By the way (for everybody not just RE) why is the knee-jerk reaction of the "international community" to call for an immediate ceasfire, irregardless of what's going on, on the ground, whenever Israel and Arabs are at war? Is it just because that's what happened all the other times? I try to imagine a case where teh US mobilized and deployed it's military and went to war, and everyone started calling for a ceasefire on day one. Hello? The purpose of going to war is not to get a ceasefire. The object of going to war is to win.

I'll try to make it back to comment more in this thread later, but to be honest I'm kind of skittish of even reading blogs these days.

PS, NBA if you want Highlander's photo, shouldn't you send her one of you first? Chicken!! :)

Anonymous said...

What is that comment in reference to? Afghanistan?

I don't agree. The US supported whoever was willing to fight the soviets. That just so happened to be jihadis in Afghanistan. We (the US) didn't support the mujahedeen because they were muslims, we did so because they were rebels.


No you dork....the support of Saudi Arabis in its quest to islamify the arab world against Egypt's Nassir in the 50's & 60's is one for you to read.

Redneck

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

HELLOOOOOOOOOO HIGHLANDER!!!!!!!!!

This is the only blog on this blogosphere I love. U speak your mind. Thats Awsome. i agree with the majority of your points. The North African states are busy with their own set of problems.lol. i see my jewish buddy found your blog.lol. He is cool, sometimes he will agrivate the hell out ya, but he brings a very integral view point into the conversation.

”Mark my words this relationship will be discarded once Israel is not needed anymore.”

I dont know maybe yes and maybe no. I personally say no, because well the jews have infiltrated the United States to the point it is no longer recognizable, they are everywhere. You should really read up a bit on the power of the Jewish lobby here in the States or really in the Greater West.



Funnily enough only recently like 5 years ago (I think) Syria was not an enemy of the US but it has been slowly pushed to align itself with Iran after the Iraq invasion and its alleged intervention in Iraq.

Yes sir, reading up I have recognized that as well, and it was a smart move in my opinion. I find myself lossing a bit of my we sense of Nationalism evereyday and replacing it with a bit of Islamism. And by that I am not saying I am a islamist because well i am far from it. But let me say in this era of enemies, and i may be a bit tooooo idealistic to say the least but I personally belive that we should be one Islamic state, ofcourse each region would have its own identity, and its own individuality, but I personally belive that we should form something of a Islamic union. i really think it would Be for the best, and maybe, just maybe, re-instate the Calipha. just my thought dont shot me. But its for the best, One Muslim Nation, one Main Military, one super power, yes I agree we live in a era of nation states, but dont you agree that this is what the west wants us to do. They want us to divide ourselfs, into nation states, they want us to divide ourselfs by race, nationality, colour, ect.... We are playing their game, well I say the hell with their game. we are sooooo Stupid for even falling for it, I mean its like playing chess with someone, and giving your rival authority over you, and then respecting that authority. Why should we be nation states? Why not one state, from indonesia to morroco, from Chechnya to Pakistan. anyway i ramble tooo Much. You are right they did favor Islamism over pan-Arab nationalism, and they signed their death warrent with that. A Secular pan-Arab nation would have been a billion times more accomadating then the Islamist state.


PC:)I get a headache reading posts like this

Good.


"Also, you are falling into the Europeans "trap" again! European policy is to support Arabs/Muslims in the middle east, against the United States and/or Israel. They want to be seen as the "good guys" no matter how much it hurts America."

LooooooooL. Wipe those tears craig, and be a man, as tommy had put it to me a couple months ago.lol. I think someone is Jelouse.lol.


Tommy:) Lol. i know what u mean, dude I use to be into all that stuff when i saw 13, 14 years old, i just pass it by nowadays.

Hey highlander, dude r yal still gonna have that "Bloggers confrince" I am gonna be in the wonderful lovley Libya, cuz I am going to my cuz's wedding, which I wouldnt miss 4 the world.lol. So r yall gonna do it.

Highlander said...

When are you coming to Libya LW ? if you do then email me your phone number and I'll contact you. I hope to revive that blogger meet up if everyone is not exhausted from the heat :)

3ogbalak nshufak 3arees fil kusha lol - is you cousin male or female

Adam said...

Craig you said something honest and interesting earlier that I had missed:

"The end game is the destruction of the Islamic Republic of Iran."

If you do not mind my asking: how should that be done? I think many of us bloggers here wonder.

Adam said...

And Non-Blogging you pale peace-monger!

stop hitting on our hostes and say something relevant instead!

programmer craig said...

Shlemazl,

Highlanders blog is about as good as it gets for finding the "middle ground" on an arab blog, in my opinion. I don't consider blogs like Sandmonkey's, Big Pharaoh or Iraq the Model to be the middle ground, just so you know :)

Though I do like reading them very much. It's just that I rarely disagree with those bloggers, which probably means they aren't a representative sample.

Adam, you are asking me to predict the future re: Iran, or what? :P

The US does intend to change that regime. I have no idea how. Personally I would rather avoid the sanctions and the airstrikes as I think those (either one) don't have agood track record for being effective.

I don't believe the US really wants Iran to temporarily toe the line. We'd be right back where we are now in another 5 years, only things would be worse than ever. I think the US intends to change that government. And that is in fact US policy. Formally. The US seeks regime change in Iran. It's teh Europeans who seek lesser measures.

Libyan Warrior and Redneck, I scrolled past your comments as usual. Thanks for the effort, though! I do sometimes read them when I'm in the mood to see what crazy people think :)

programmer craig said...

For another take, I think Iqbal Latif on Iranian.com makes some good points:

The bigots at work

I find the Iranian perspective about Hezbollah very interesting (on both sides) because Hezbollah is an Iranian creation, and the Hezbollah is currently serving Iranian interests in Lebanon.

On an ironic note, Sheema at Zeneirani:

The Radical Imam's flight from Beirut To Denmark!

Is reporting the Danes have rescued the very same Imam who was behind burning the Danish consulate in Beirut! I'll file that one under "suicidal tendencies" :P

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

LOL. Yalla thats it. The world has gone mad, when a raving nut-case like PC calls me a crazy person. Insane, I swear. but at least he got one thing right that Sandmonkey, and all of the other apostates blogs are not a representative sample. As far as changeing the Government.lol. U r truley crazy PC. U really have no idea what Iran is capable of. the gulf will burn thats all i have 2 say and iraq will turn and not on me, buddy, it will turn on your friendly little buddies in the Genocidal Christian Crusading US Military. So Yes their will b no regime change, America will learn to play nice, just like it is playing Nice with Mr. KIm. Because we all know that America is a bully and it would not dare attack anyone who could defend themselves. p.S craig just so everyone knows your "thoughts' extreamly deranged and Radical thoughts at that do not represent the American people. u r by no means a "representative sample" despite what Shawn Insanity and Micheal the Blood Thirsty Jewish Savage Say.

Highlander:) Looooool. Highlander, u r funny. My Cousin is a chick her wedding is in september or late August, I will take of school and go because i love her so much and I would not miss it 4 the world.lol. but in anycase I will most definatly send u my number, but dude i do not know where to get your e-mail. Anyway hit me back when ya got it. take care. I got to go and finish some guitar tracks, i started a band, so i will come back later.

shlemazl said...

Highlander;

Sorry I was a bit tough on you. PC tells me that you are "the middle ground among the Arab bloggers". Sadly it's a dubious compliment.

Entertainment of conspiracy theories and beliefs that others have had "agendas" against Arabs for hundreds of years, exposed "links" to Rotchilds make me wonder whether you are just another badly screwed soul. Tell you what: my brother in law is a director of Rotchild bank. He isn't Jewish, but would that put me bang in the centre of your conspiracy?

I'll give it to you that you are civil, which is a bit different. Not sure you would want me to stick around as I tend to say what I think.

PC, Actually there are lots of really bright Arab bloggers out there, e.g. Leilouta, Sandmonkey, Big Pharaoh, Jos and Pazuzu (you can link to them from my site), so the competition is tough.

LybianWarrior,

Who is the the "jewish buddy" you are talking about? Hope it's not me. Whichever treatment you've had recently, please make sure you persevere with it. It appears to be working.

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

Who is the the "jewish buddy" you are talking about? Hope it's not me. Whichever treatment you've had recently, please make sure you persevere with it. It appears to be working.

No you worthless peice of human vermin, I do not consider u a friend, its mearly a figure of speach. But whatever the case may be, I am not in any treatment, i am mearly civil and respectful towards those who deserve it u and the tunisian twat do not deserve my respect and hence u shall recive nothing but venom and hate from me, Tommy while I disagree with him, deserves my respect, Craig in my opinion is not so bad, he is just conflicted, but u sir, r PURE EVIL.

programmer craig said...

shlemazl,

Not sure you would want me to stick around as I tend to say what I think.

Are you saying I don't? :P

Yes, I read Sandmonkey, Big Pharoah, etc... and I have been a regular there for about a year. I've been reading Leilouta since she started, and she's oneof my favorites. What I meant about Highlander is that she's not pro-West. She pro-Arab. But her mind is not closed. Some of the best discussions I've been a participant in have been on this blog. So, I still think this is one of the best places to get the arab persepctive on things without getting beaten over the head and mugged along the way by abusive bloggers and/or commenters. Although H has a couple commenters who like to do that too, but luckily they aren't very creative about disguising their hostility :)

programmer craig said...

BTW, shlemazl, LibyanWarrior is AngryLibyanAmerican... I'm sure you've seen him on Sandmonkey's and Leilouta's.... just so you know who you are dealing with :O

Libyan Warrior( KING OF AL-ANDLUS) said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Libyan Warrior( KING OF AL-ANDLUS) said...

Highlander is that she's not pro-West. She pro-Arab

Well she is an Arab Craig, So I would think.

"But her mind is not closed"


What are u trying to insinuate with the word but you racist pig? Yes Highlander has a open mind, but are u trying to say that Arabs are closed minded? And that Highlander is the exception to the rule. Their is no need to disguse my hostility to Judeo-Christian Terrorism. I am a MAN, I am not gonna beat around the bush u racist prick, I am gonna tell it how it is, numb nuts.

By the way, i never went by the alias ALA on the tunisian twats blog, I went by Libyan Warrior, she-male knows this.

programmer craig said...

LW,

I meant she's not a racist, whining about racism. She's not a bigot, whining about bigotry. She's not a war-monger, whining about war. She's not a hate-monger, whining about hate.

Which makes her different from most of the arab bloggers. And from most of the commenters on those blogs.

Adam said...

[Quoted out of context] Craig says:
“…my obeservations that European diplomats have unanimously refused to call Hezbollah a terrorist group on American TV.”
Not watching too much Fox News are we? :p I just have to check

And more seriously:
In the end we might find some peripheral points of agreement. I am gladly surprised about your objections on US/Iraq. Seems I misread you earlier, I was under the impression that all strategies and policies were untouchable beyond the absolute.

And what you say about the disappointing results of air-strikes I also agree on. But I really cannot hold the “productiveness” of the ongoing stuff in my mind at the same time. How can you?

I suspect this is a bait, but I cannot let it go:
” Bush said 5 years ago: You're with us or you're with the terrorists.
Europe is with the terrorists.
This conflict is the proof.”


So everybody in the world is The Enemy. Except Libya, Canada, UK, Italy, and Australia. Tough luck for home of the brave. We shiver like bunnies, and wonder who is up after Iran.....

Adam said...

The most interesting link in Highlander’s post is the RAND document. Also pretty interesting is how different people see different things in the same document!

[my boldface]
”Programs such as International Military Education and Training (IMET) not only ensure that future military leaders are exposed to American military values and practices but can also translate into increased U.S. influence and access.”

Now what do we see here, “Dominance” or “Democracy”? I see dominance.

shlemazl said...

Dear Lybian Warrior,

What can "the Tunisian twat" and myself do to earn your respect?

shlemazl said...

"Tommy while I disagree with him, deserves my respect, Craig in my opinion is not so bad, he is just conflicted, but u sir, r PURE EVIL."

Tommy, Craig: if I were you I would be VERY jealous.

Craig, I know exactly who LW is. I even know where he is. I even know what he thinks about L and me and that he stopped taking the medication yet again.

tommy said...

shlemazl,

Jealous I am! Jealous indeed!

Highlander said...

Adam , thanks for reading that document carefully, I noticed that sentence and other similar and was wondering that maybe I misunderstood because English is my third language .

Adam said...

Hi Hi! My third too:) So maybe I misunderstood, maybe i"increased influence" refers to the influence of the population living there :p

Adam said...

What I mean is:
no the difference is not that big between RAND and that European colonialistic century old document.

programmer craig said...

Adam, any areas of agreement you and I have must be areas where my thinking is wrong :P

PS-I set no bait. Bait is un-necessary to draw snarky and cheap comments from you. I'm not engaging you on any of your pet peeves, anymore. You seem to have a lot of them, and you'll have to deal with me giving you opportunities to vent. I'm not your punching bag.

Highlander, why do you never posts op-eds from prestigious European and Arab idiots for us to pick over? Why is it only what American idiots think that merits discussion? Are we so important? :D

I still say you are never going to understand what US policy is until you understand what US goals are. You keep trying to find proof that US foreign policy matches your expectations of generic ill-will towards arabs and muslims. And that we are some sort of colonial power.

Do you really believe that teh US wants to try and control any arab country!? All we need from the ME is oil. We don't need to try to govern the un-governable to get the oil. Your line of thinking about what the US is up to is dead wrong. It really is about terrorism. From the beginning, to the end.

Adam said...

Hi Craig, your statements seem to be addressed, at least partly, to me:

“ You keep trying to find proof that US foreign policy matches your expectations of generic ill-will towards arabs and muslims.”

Not true. I do not think in terms of a Western or US/Arab conflict. I dislike that line of thinking where people in news, blogs, coffee-table discussions etc see a huge rift between the west and the Arab world.

Here is what I posted elsewhere, now for those here who might see a huge Arab/Western struggle/war:
“ …
I am a westerner living in Europe and I really do not like this general implicit presumption which [in my eyes] is so frequent here:
That there is a huge almost unsolvable conflict between the West and Islam. And that this conflict cannot end before the map of the world has been redrawn. Perhaps I am misreading but most fellow bloggers here seem to revolve around that point.
For those of us who are old enough to remember the feeling of the absolute immutability of the Berlin Wall, the fall of the same is a good lesson. The so called "global conflict between Islam and the West" is a pretty new thing, just a few years old, IMHO. The earth was spinning before it and without it pretty recently.
…”

(And please, do not split hairs over the definition of “pretty recently”.)

Full post: http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2006/07/comment_promote.html#comment-20380099

”And that we are some sort of colonial power.”
Not exactly. I just meant that the subtext in the RAND document and the subtext in that colonial stuff, from the museum, have got a few interesting similarities. I do not speak of colonization, I speak of influence & benefit.

And BTW, I hope you have read what I wrote about the cynical French and Russians.

Maya M said...

Highlander, I have the impression that the deaths and sufferings of Lebanese charged your emotions so much that your reason is, for the moment, blinded. Therefore Shlemazl considered you as hopeless, which your regular readers know isn't true at all.
It is quite right to equate the West with USA. The other Western countries are either isolationist, or too small to be real forces. The worst example seems to be Western Europe which used to be "the West" but now is bashing its own culture and subsidizing its own colonization by Muslims.
Why do you think that every idealist, even a Westerner like Carra de Vaux, should support the Muslim Umma? Some people may pursue other ideals!
NBA, you just amazed me. I have accepted Popper's rule that if an honest reader has misunderstood me, it must have been my fault that I haven't expressed myself correctly. So I re-read my comment, but to no avail. Where have I said that only people of a particular skin color should have voting rights? All I am saying is that democracy, if not supplemented by some values universally accepted in the society, is likely to destroy itself. These values seem not to be valued much in Islamic countries, hence the failure of democratic experiments there. The original Holocaust was done by a democratically elected government. Democracy failed to prevent it. I don't think democracy alone can prevent a second Holocaust.
The original Holocaust was done by white people, so it is OK to condemn it. Ilan Halimi was killed by black people. Should I pretend that his murder hasn't happened, or should I say that it's a good thing, just because the murderers are black and I am white? This political correctness is killing Europe! Translated to plain English, it says that no word or action of a white person or community against a non-white one is legitimate. It says that it's racist and fascist and so on to be against the immigration of unspecified number of non-white people to Europe, or to accuse non-white people of barbarism, especially if it's true. So the only hope of Europe is that all of its enemies and destructive people will be white. Eh well, some are not.

Adam said...

Maya I do not understand you, you said yourself that you are Islamophobic. And now you say that you are rational about Islam?

7mada said...

'At least 20 children and dozens of other civilians were killed in an Israeli airstrike on the Lebanese town of Qana.'

'Dozens more civilians, including a large number of children, are still buried underneath the rubble of houses destroyed in attacks around the city.'

"Truth is on the side of the oppressed." Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (Malcolm X)

Maya M said...

Adam, if I understand you correctly, you mean that I cannot be rational about Islam if I am Islamophobic, because the word "phobia" is largely used for irrational fears. The above mentioned Popper, my favourite philosopher, says we mustn't be too obsessed and precise about definitions, or we'll never get far with any discussion. The term "Islamophobia" was coined by Islamists to ashame and shut up their opponents, but once the word is here, I don't mind using it. Neither do I claim that my attitude towards Islam is 100% "rational", i.e. free of emotions. And as somebody mentioned before me, in a world where so many atrocities are done by Muslims in the name of Islam, it's very difficult to say where the rational dislike and fear of Islam ends and the irrational begins.
My problem with Islam is that the more I learn about it, the less I like it. In a recent discussion on this blog, Highlander asked why aren't all Muslim countries attacked if the enemy is Islam, and Programmer Craig said that the enemy is terrorism. To me, the enemy really is Islam, though I would strongly object against attacking any country, community or person in any way merely because they are Muslim. I didn't want to intervene between HL and PC, but didn't also feel very convenient about keeping silence, so I used the opportunity to remind of my Islamophobia. In fact, Programmer Craig considers as terrorism not only the "direct" terrorism, but also the support to it and the ideology behind it. So there seems to be no real contradiction between Craig and me - his "terrorism" and my "Islam" seem to be generally the same thing.
Adam, I remember that in a previous discussion you were so pro-Muslim that Hanu, who I guess has been brought up in a Muslim environment, mistook you for a Muslim! I thought then that your approval of Islam probably includes much wishful thinking. You said ironically, "Just think that there are 1.2 billion Muslims, we must be dead any minute!" and so on. I think that among the people who consider themselves as Muslims, many are in fact apostates, so the real number of those who consider jihad as their supreme duty is not above, say, 800 millions. Still scary, isn't it? I understand your wish to see the world in bright colours, but reality will punish us if we refuse to see it.
As for the enemies of the West - yes, this includes nearly everybody. Europeans and others appeasing the Islamists and hoping USA or God will intervene and save the world from Islamism. Is it really funny? Wasn't it generally the same during World War II and the Cold War? I cannot quite understand why the fall of Communism is a "good lesson". Communism took many millions of lives and created suffering difficult to imagine. After its fall the former Communist countries, including my own, still cannot crawl out of the misery. Communism hasn't fallen completely. The Communist leadership of China still holds a billion humans hostage. But for me the most troubling thought about Nazism and Communism is that civilization survived them largely by luck. How many times can you hope to be licky?
And please don't tell me that Communism was inevitably doomed because its economy wasn't viable. Most civilization-destroyers seem to have little viability. What has remained of the Spartans who ruined Athens' civilization? What has remained of the tribes who destroyed the Western Roman Empire? They are where the water goes, where the wind blows. A kind of supreme justice, but I find little comfort in it.

Non-Blogging said...

Maya,

My original comment in another thread here wasn't meant to be taken literally. Of course I don't believe you'd like to limit participation in the democratic processes to people with certain physical characteristics. Still, I think the thinking I read between your lines is dangerous - I mean the kind of idea that democracy destroys itself which is why there should be less democracy. That's one of the bottom lines of ideologies such as fascism (dictatorship of the right people) or communism (dictatorship of the right class).

Also, I don't think there's a link between democracy and, say, anti-Semitism in France. Generally, I think people nowadays label each other too easily.

Somebody insults a Jew -> France is anti-Semitic. No way. If there was such a term as anti-Gypsyism and a monitoring body read your blog, Bulgaria would wrongly be labelled as an anti-Gypsy country ;-).

The problem with anti-Semitism is that people label other as anti-Semites too easily, including rightful criticism of Israel being labelled as anti-Semitism. Neither can we really claim that somebody telling an indicent Jewish joke would happily take part in the establishing of a second Holocaust (which I honestly don't see coming in my crystal ball).

Neither were the Danish cartoons an indication of deep Islamaphobia in the West, nor is the West immediately threatened by Islam. There are unfortunately threats as we saw some months ago and they include self-censorship and attempts to put Islam in a position where it couldn't be criticized like any other religion or ideology. This is not only the fault of Muslims but as much of those Westerners who succumb too easily. A couple of leading politicians and practically all editors-in-chief in my country included, and that's utterly disgusting.

Also, I think Craig is exaggerating very much when he claims Europe is siding with terrorists.

Adam,

Was this now relevant enough and completely lacking an attempt to hit on our hostess ;-)?

BTW, surprised to see the word Qana hasn't yet been mentioned on this blog! (Hint, hint...)

LW,

Would like to know what kind of music your band plays. If you're good I seriously consider asking you to play in the wedding ball if I ever marry a Berber girl LOL.

shlemazl said...

NB,

It might actually be better to wait discussing the Qana tragedy until we know what caused the building to collapse. The root cause is clear: war initiated by Hezbollah, but why did the building collapse 8 hours after the IDF attack?

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

non-blogging:) Dude I play a strange Mixture of middle eastern Death metal, mets 80's Slayer like trash, and nasum like grindcore, and a bit of hardcore like DRI, and alot of Power Metal.lol. Mid-Eastern Folk-esq power metal.lol. its a Islamic band in the sense of I write about Islamic history, through a historical and documantarial Point of View, I use strong Islamic imagery, lots of Flag waving, I occasionally write about Pan-Arab nationalism, i deont write about Berber nationalism, because my audiance is 100% Arab and I to be totallly honest with you can not really relate to it, so its better just to assimilate into the larger minority group here in the states, cuz I speak arabic and I was raised with Arab cultural norms, and the arab community accepts me. So lol. the Music has nothing to do with berbers, and it would be extreamly inapropriate for a wedding.lol. And I seriosly doubt any berber family would let u marry their daughter, I mean only as of late have berbers been giving their daughters hands in marriage to Arabs, I dont think a forigner from Finland would Be accepted in the berber or arab community. I personally could never see myself marrying any women who was not Libyan. I dont really care if she is arab or berber as long as she is Libyan.lol. I am a nationalist, a patriot and I LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE my COUNTRY!!!!! I bleed green.lol. Anyway if u wanna hear some of my stuff, i just finished 4 instrumentals, and i am getting ready 2 play a couple shows with a couple of dudes, cuz, I write and record on my own, cuz, i dont want people hindering my creativity. I dont take advice from anyone, except one girl, a Libyan girl at that who I confide 2, but besides that everyone elses input means shit 2 me. I write what I want, the way i want, the project is mine, a 100% mine, and it will always be that way , I write guitar parts, drums, bass, everything, the Lyrics, I do the Artwork, the logos, shirts, i make the cds, I promote, and all that stuff, I dont care about huge audiances, and I will never take a penny for my music, because that would be selling out, art is pure, and money is filth, and filth will pervert my music, look at all the great bands and how they have been perverted by money, booze, and all that junk, dude, i will never sell out, I dont wanna get signed to a major, i wanna stay UNDERGROUND 4 LIFE!!!!!!! Anyway i ramble tooooo much.

shlemazl said...

LW,

You are Berber? that's interesting. Have you heard of Berber Queen Kahina? Do you think she was Jewish :-)?

http://shlemazl.blogspot.com/2006/07/on-zinedine-zidane-and-berbers.html

Non-Blogging said...

Shlemazl,

I'm not a civil engineer ;-).

Maybe it collapsed just hours after the strike because it was detonated by Mossad like the Twin Towers ;-)? No, seriously, as you saw on 9/11, buildings don't collapse immediately. This is quite normal and I have no reason to believe a) Mossad, CIA, Elvis, Freemasons etc. exploded the WTC building instead of the 19 flying terrorists, b) the Qana massacre wasn't because of the airstrike by the IDF.

If proof by an independent investigation (not just IDF investigating itself) later proves something else, I'll take my words back and buy you a Kosher beer :-).

LW,

Just the kind of music my Western-Middle Eastern wedding needs :-).

shlemazl said...

NB

The word "massacre" means intentional murder.

Are you saying that the IDF knowingly targeted a building full of civilians?

Non-Blogging said...

Shlemazl,

Another comment as well, if you don't mind (I refer here to this blog and that of yours). Of course it's true that Hizbollah started this phase of war by illegally taken two IDF soldiers as hostages.

However, that's no justification whatsoever of killing dozens of innocent people, sick and children included. By claiming that because Hizbollah started this war, Israel has the right to do whatsoever is akin to claiming that because the US government supports Israel, terrorists have the right to kill American civilians.

I don't buy either of the claims above myself of course.

Also, I think it'd be in the interest of anybody who's pro-Israeli that Israel wages its wars in a civilized way. If we don't only think about the humane factor, behaving well even in a war is a great way to gather sympathy from the outside world. Of course we always have a bunch of anti-Semites who hate everything Israel does and the bunch of pro-Israelis who think any criticism of Israel is lethal anti-Semitism. All the rest, me included, are influeneced by what Israel really does (or what they perceive Israel does).

Like, I respect Israel's achievements and generally the positively disproportionate contributions Jews have made to this world. The world would be worse without them for sure. Also, I honour Israel for being by far the closest thing to a Western democracy in its region. Coming from a small country myself, I also admire that they've survived in a hostile neighbourhood for decades. On the other hand, I strongly dislike Israel's deficit of real democracy - minority rights of non-Jewish Israeli citizens - and the fact that due to US backing, Israel thinks it can do anything and doesn't have to bow to rules others have to. If Israeli governments behaved in a way showing more self-criticism, they would also have more sympathy from me.

Of course they don't need my sympathy anyway ;-).

Non-Blogging said...

Shlemazl,

IDF of course claim it didn't know about the civilians. I'd say anyway IDF would have hit the building in a similar way had it civilians sheltering or not. That lack of care for innocent lives is intentional and definitely not the first incident in this war of its kind - just remember the UN shelter story.

Before anyone here labels me anti-Israeli with no reason, I can tell all of you that Hizbollah cares even less about innocent victims among their enemy or themselves.

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

Queen Kahina was a Pagan who worshiped the Imazigan god of war Agurzil. The lie that she was a jew, was invented by jews who lived in North Africa. I know my Imazighan history fairly well, and I have researched the topic extensivly.


Non-Blogger:)
Sure dude I mean if thats what your wedding needs, then I am more then happy to accomodate.

Non-Blogging said...

LW,

Thanks so much.

Craig,

Will you then be my bestman? Can the two of you have a ceasefire for the great occasion?

If so, now we only need the bride LOL.

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

Lol. Dude u r welcome, as far as the cease fire goes, I can behave in Carig can, and as far as the bride we have she-male.lol.

shlemazl said...

NB:

I am not going to call you anti-Israeli. I am going to call you misinformed.

You've been in the army so you should know that accidents happen. Quite regularly soldiers shoot their comrades. Weapons are designed to kill and kill they do. War is a terrible thing.

IDF has been relatively successful in minimizing civilian casulaties, particularly considering the Hezbollah tactics:

http://shlemazl.blogspot.com/2006/07/comparative-analysis-of-civilian-death.html

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

WOW The Israeli spokes persons is on this blog.lol. She-male "accidents happen" FUCK U, everyone knows the truth about your terror state, everyone in the whole world, u people, well u really are not people now are u, u are souless bloodthirsty vermin who infect our earth.

"Hizbollahs tactics"
Dont u dare take the moral high ground your worthless peice of Grabage, u fucking heartless bloodthirsty criminal, no one has more brutal terroristic tactics then u Jews.

"I wont call u anti-israeli"
lol. Here we go again with the "anti-semetism".lol. My god I cant belive people still belive that rubbish, the Jews are not a semetic people they are a turkik people, a japetic people, with veru fairy ashy skin, grey eyes, and blond hair. The Israelite are extinct and so are the original palistinians, so stop with your bullshit. The palistinians living in palistine today are semites the Lebonease children which your Terrorist nation has been killing non-stop are semetic, u r the Anti-Semite she-male. go Back to Khazaria, and leave us alobne. U r a force of evil, u have shed enough of our blood, leave the Middle east and return to your native Europe, u have destablized our region 4 far 2 long.
GO HOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

Highlander, please kick She-Male of this Blog, he is a sick and twisted individual who supports terrorism, and takes sides with it, this worthless peice of human garbage should not be allowed here. Go to his blog and see all the shit he has up their, this man is a un-stable jewish Fanatic, who wants to slit my neck and yours as well, just like his friends in the Jew military are doing to the babies in Lebonan.

shlemazl said...

LW,

"u really are not people now are u, u are souless bloodthirsty vermin who infect our earth."

Perhaps you need to check your university's webuse policy. I seem to recollect you have been logging into my blog from your uni's account.

shlemazl said...

"Lebonan"?

What have you been doing LW? If that's not a Freudean slip I don't know what is.

Maya M said...

Non-Blogging, while I agree with you that the Qana building must have collapsed because of the IDF strike, I definitely cannot understand your point that Israel (or anybody else) could make a war without "killing dozens of innocent people, sick and children included". Have we Europeans lived in peace for too long, to forget what war means? As far as I remember history books, real war typically kills thousands to hundreds of thousands innocent people, and nobody has yet given any idea how to avoid this, except (as we see now) to advise civilized powers to submit to their uncivilized enemies without fight in order to spare the enemy's children.
If the death of fewer than 100 civilians is made issue of the day in the UN, it's better to send all our soldiers home at once and let the jihadis do anything they want. Or to regard the UN as nuisance and laughing matter, which it is.
Shlemazl, was Golda Meir who said, "We can forgive them the killing of our children, but we'll never forgive them that they force us to kill their children"? A good line to remind today, I think.

Non-Blogging said...

Shlemazl,

I am not going to call you anti-Israeli. I am going to call you misinformed.

That's a compliment :-). Recently I was told on syrianita.blogspot.com that I don't understand when I tried to explain a couple of Syrians that Israelis are also human beings, the Syrian government is treating its own citizens badly and that Syria occupied Lebanon and killed civilians ;-). Check the debate there and you'll see.

You've been in the army so you should know that accidents happen. Quite regularly soldiers shoot their comrades. Weapons are designed to kill and kill they do. War is a terrible thing.

Yes, accidents happen. When I was in the army myself, some people died in accidents and that was peacetime. Surprisingly few, however, knowing the share of people there I wouldn't perhaps give weapons myself ;-).

IDF has been relatively successful in minimizing civilian casulaties, particularly considering the Hezbollah tactics:

http://shlemazl.blogspot.com/2006/07/comparative-analysis-of-civilian-death.html


I've seen you promote the comparison elsewhere already and I kind of like it. Not that it would change anything but at least it gives some food for thought.

If this is what you think is where I'm misinformed, you're wrong in my opinion. Anybody who's frequented this blog can tell you I've complained frequently how much attention Israel/Palestine etc. gets in comparison with far worse humanitarian crises such as Darfur and Congo. This is in my opinion caused by the strength of both the pro-Israeli lobby and anti-Israeli fanatics who think their issue is the biggest problem in the world.

If you added Congo and Darfur to your scale, it'd look even more comparative. However, that the conflict has had relateively few victims doesn't indicate the IDF has behaved in the best possible manner. The death toll could and should be less. Furthermore, the relatively small death toll doesn't as such indicate Israel has been humane. The number of Israeli victims of Hizbollah in the conflict is also quite small, yet neither I nor you would claim it's because Hizbollah is "successful in minimizing civilian casualties". No way, it's just because they're unable to cause more damage.

I admit of course the IDF could have been even worse. So far they didn't drop nuclear bombs on Beirut and there's no indication they would.

Maya,

Shouldn't the ideal, if there really have to be wars, be that the amont of casualties is as little as possible? I hate it if we start thinking that killing thousands of civilians, children and sick included, is the standard and we should never strive at anything better than that.

shlemazl said...

NB:

I agree with your latest note. Absolutely disagree with your previous statement "That lack of care for innocent lives is intentional". Numbers demonstrate that this isn't true. I am not saying that the Israeli army does not make mistakes; a number of times it fell into Hezbollah trap. You've got to give HA credit: they are imaginative bastards and think they can't lose by hiding among civilians. Either Israel does not hit them or it hits civilians and Hezbollah wins either way. I also don't rule out that there is a chance that an individual may make the wrong decision intentionaly. Every nation has a right to have its own villains. However it beggers belief to imply that Israeli army has a policy of carelessness with regards to civilian life. If nothing else, do you think Israeli command is full of total idiots?

There is no point making comparison with the number of victims in Darfur because that is a massacre as opposed to war. Intention is the difference. In terms of the number of victims compared to what is happening in Africa almost every year this conflict is minute (not to say that each and every one of them isn't a tragedy). Sudan is ignored by left-wingers because there are no Americans or Jews involved, except trying to stop the massacre and help the victims.

Logically there is no reason to focus on this conflict as opposed to Sudan, except maybe one. Hezbollah is firing missiles capable of carrying a nuclear warhead. Won't be long before Iran has nuclear weapons. I've seen nuclear warheads and can assure you that it won't be difficult to smuggle them to Hezbollah. Nazrallah can be trusted to use them. I am not saying this is going to happen but it is a feasible scenario if Hezbollah isn't destroyed.

The combination of two factors: them being on Israeli border and their objective of killing Jews is untanable.

"Furthermore, the relatively small death toll doesn't as such indicate Israel has been humane. The number of Israeli victims of Hizbollah in the conflict is also quite small".

False comparison. If Israel wanted to it could have capertbombed south Lebanon without the use of nuclear weapons. As you say, Hezbollah does not have the capability to kill all the Jews but not for the lack of trying.

Maya M said...

I think I don't need to write that salt is salty, water is wet and war is an evil and should be avoided whenever possible (although our opponents would disagree). However, if we decide to start a war or somebody starts it against us, I think our first priority is to win. Our second priority is to minimize OUR victims, and care for the victims of the other side is only 3rd priority. If the priorities are these and in this order, and if our enemies are men saying they cherish death and photographing their preschool kids with rifles or in suicide bomber gear, the number of victims seems to reach thousands automatically, doesn't it?
You say you don't see another Holocaust coming in your crystal ball. Here are two titles from tonight's news: "EU doesn't consider Hezbollah a terrorist organization", "EU says current Israel's policy is intolerable and must be stopped". I admit I'm a pessimist by nature, but I wonder, where do you find reasons for your optimism?

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

Listen here u commie bitch from hell!!!!!!!!!!!! I am sick of your fucking shit.


saying they cherish death and photographing their preschool kids with rifles or in suicide bomber gear, the number of victims seems to reach thousands automatically, doesn't it?

What the fuck are u talking about!!!!! U one sided twat East Euro-UNPure mongol peice of turkik scum!!!!!!!! The Jews have had their kids signing bombs to kill lebonease children, the jewish rabbis have told soilders to kill all the gentiles especially the women and children in their religiouse etiquetes.


You say you don't see another Holocaust coming?

Oh its here the Jews are commiting genocide in palistine and lebonan as we speak. their are camps people are being put to death u Zionist turkik Fuck!!!!!!!!

God Damn Mongol Vermin.

Maya M said...

LW, you recently wrote that you don't accept the two-state solution, you accept just one state, Palestine.
You never elaborated what should then happen to the Jews.

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

The Jews should go back home to Khazaria.

shlemazl said...

LW,

You got a mention in my post. I admitted you were right.

Regardless of that I really do believe that you should seek help urgently before you harm others and yourself.

Non-Blogging said...

Shlemazl,

I think we still disagree on many points and it seems that we don't find common ground in a couple of issues. Hope you've at least understood I definitely support Israel's right to exist and defend itself. We just disagree on the best method to do that. In my opinion, Israel would get more support and sympathy from the world if it acted somewhat differently. This support is an important factor in guaranteeing that Israelis will survive in their hostile environment.

Like I guess I've written before, only the future will tell if either of us was right or the truth is somewhere in between. Although I don't agree with you more than partially, you've the right to your line. At least it's consistent and you're not a windmill. So, I think there's no sense in commenting the IDF further now because we both stick to our own opinions and can prove them both by our own statistics. Let's move to other issues.

Sudan is ignored by left-wingers because there are no Americans or Jews involved, except trying to stop the massacre and help the victims.

Partly true. Parts of the left get excited every time the US or Israel (note: not Jews, but Israel, parts of the left are traditionally critical of the US and Israel but not of Jews) does something bad. I've never understood that bias myself. Interestingly the same people are nowadays rallying for Chechnya as well. I'd of course like to see an independent Chechnya emerge one day (but NOT with the kind of leadership the rebels would bring but as a utopistic sounding independent democracry freed from the KGB clique in the Kremlin) but I wonder how they turned so easily against Russia which financed some of them for years.

Many of the bunch never criticize the lack of human rights in, say, the Arab countries or Cuba. That makes them lose their credibility in my eyes.

To add, the world is, erm, disproportionately quiet about Darfur because it's more convenient for Arab governments and people to rally the Palestinian cause than criticize the massacre caused by an Arab government. Disgusting hypocrisy.

It's also true that I haven't seen Americans, Jews or Israel trying to solve the mess very actively. Neither anyone else.

Maya,

For the EU to consider Hizbollah a terrorist organization a unanimous decision of the 25 member states is needed. Even if one (in this case France, for example) would oppose, no decision could be made. However, I can copy-paste here below something from the blog of the Finnish foreign minister Tuomioja (www.formin.fi). It's quite a condemnation of both Hamas and Hizbollah, isn't it? And remember, the poor guy is frequently bashed by pro-Israeli fanatics.

Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organisations. They as well as all individuals responsible for terrorist acts will have to answer for them, but this must take place respecting the rule-of-law and international treaties. Today the international com­munity stands fully behind the demand that they unconditionally release the soldiers they have abducted and that they cease all violent activity, including rocket attacks, against Israel. They can achieve recog­nition and gain the cooperation of the outside world only through a renunciation of all terrorism and violence and a commitment to a peace process which also guarantees the security of Israel living side by side with a viable Palestinian state.

As for your quote "EU says current Israel's policy is intolerable and must be stopped". Yes, true but not the whole picture. Wherever the headline is from, it's written by a journalist who has to squeeze a longish diplomatic bla... sorry, statement, in a couple of words. The EU has in fact frequently criticized not only Israel but Hizbollah as well. Why do you and the journalist forget that?

Below you can find the EU statement in its entirety if you're interested in the whole picture, not just a news headline:

http://www.eu2006.fi/news_and_documents/conclusions/vko31/en_GB/1154498409251/_files/75661213312155672/default/90739.pdf

So, we can now easily agree that the second Holocaust has been postponed.

Disclaimer: I'm not paid either by the Finnish government or the EU to acts as their spokesperson. I just wanted to mention the above to tell the facts, not to make propaganda for any body. I'm completely independent and wish to remain so :-).

Non-Blogging said...

Highlander, Craig, Adam, where are you when you're needed? It's hard to be in the middle ground between Shlemazl and LW alone. Come save a Euro-softie before he starts crying for his Mom to help!!!

Maya M said...

Non-blogging, you convinced me to drop most of my charges against EU. Now my fears remain associated "only" with potentially nuclear Iran and the opportunity of Mullahs giving nuclear weapons to Hezbollah.
LW, you delighted me. Seriously. I expected you'd say that Jews should return to the ancient homeland of all living creatures, i.e. the sea.
Why, of all places inhabited by Jews in the past, you single our Khazaria? Why not e.g. the town of Yathrib, better known as the Muslim holy site Medina?
Let's look at your "final solution" in more detail. Khazarian land is now populated by Russians and some other nations. Let's assume, for the argument's sake, that Jews agree to move and somebody finds a way to impose Israel relocation to the nuclear power Russia. Wouldn't it be injustice to the present inhabitants of Khazaria if they are forced to move away or become a minority on what used to be their land?
I admit that the same thing was injustice when it was imposed on the Palestinians with the "Palestine mandate" and the foundation of Israel. Sometimes justice for all merely isn't possible. But you don't hesitate to propose the same injustice for other people, as long as they aren't Arabs. This is the Arab double standard I don't like: it's OK to displace Europeans but not Arabs, it's OK to bomb Germans or Japanese or Serbs but not Arabs, it's OK for Kurds to have no state but not for (Palestinian) Arabs, it's OK to deport Jewish minority and to discriminate against Coptic minority but any Arab minority must have more rights than the majority, and it's OK for Arabs to exterminate blacks (in Darfur) but the opposite would be unthinkable.
One of the things I like in Carra de Vaux's citation is exactly the lack of double standard. (I don't know whether he's the same in his other works.) Still deep in the colonial era, he thinks of its coming end and how to prepare for the future. Yes, he wants to preserve the "interests and security" of France and the West in general - is it so bad that he isn't self-hating and (correctly) sees the Umma as a threat to the West? But to neutralize this threat, he doesn't propose genocide, forcible conversion to Christianity, or keeping the Muslims in misery to make them harmless. Instead, he draws a blueprint to lessen their religious sentiments and to include them in nation states. A proud citizen of France, home of the Enlightenment and possibly the first modern nation state, could hardly see anything wrong in luring others to become more secular and nationalistic. He doesn't break the Golden rule, doesn't prescribe to others any medicine he wouldn't swallow himself.

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

I really do believe that you should seek help urgently before you harm others and yourself.


Oh look at the Jew.lol. I need to seek help.LMAO.

If u disagree with them they make u out to be some sucidal-homocidal psychopath.lol. Whatever she-male, I will seek help, when mel gibson seeks help, ofcourse the ADL wants to treat us all, for our "Anti-Semitism".LMAO.

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

The Jews are the Indigonouse people of Khazaria u twit.

Read your history.

As far as everything else u brought up, that their is none of my concern this tread is about the current situation in the middle east, stop straying of topic. U seekm to suffer from a high degree of Anti-Semitism Maya, and a high degree of Islamophobia, u r extreamly bigoted in your comments, i am offended and I want a apology, I see not much has changed in Europe, the Anti-Semetism is still flurishing, it is still alive and well. Very Sad.

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

Wouldn't it be injustice to the present inhabitants of Khazaria if they are forced to move away or become a minority on what used to be their land?

The Jew are Indigonouse to Khazaria.


I admit that the same thing was injustice when it was imposed on the Palestinians with the "Palestine mandate" and the foundation of Israel.

Well finally we agree. Thank u for stating that. End of Delimma.


But you don't hesitate to propose the same injustice for other people, as long as they aren't Arabs.

What are u talking about, I have never proposed injustice for those who are not Arabs.


"This is the Arab double standard I don't like: it's OK to displace Europeans but not Arabs, it's OK to bomb Germans or Japanese or Serbs but not Arabs"

When did we Arabs bomb Germany or japan, or state that they must be bombed, when did we displace, Europeans? I dont see a Arab nation in Europe, or any Arab troops in Europe?


it's OK for Kurds to have no state but not for (Palestinian) Arabs, it's OK to deport Jewish minority and to discriminate against Coptic minority but any Arab minority must have more rights than the majority, and it's OK for Arabs to exterminate blacks (in Darfur) but the opposite would be unthinkable.

I never said that do not forget that U r talking to a berber. i have assimilated, those other folks should do the same, but then again this is a family idspute so please get your big slavic nose out of it!!!!!!! As far as darfur goes, they are all black, a few have assimilated like me, and a few havent, but racially speaking they are all the same. As far as the copts go, they are arabs, u are mixing Islam and Arabs, and a whole diffrent other topics that have nothing to do with anything. Have u forgoten what this tread is about, its about the middle-east sitution at hand, u have addmitted that the Jews stole the land, problem sloved. End of story.

As far as becoming secular, sorry u can go to hell by yourselves, dont drag us in with ya.lol. I am tired of playing by the infidles rules of Nation States, i am tired of bickering. here is what i propose, Reclaim all of muslim lands, from Spain to indonesia, abolish all nation states, no more "libya", "turkey", "palistine,"bosnia", just one Islamic Nation, with one flag, and arabic being the Universal langauge in that Place. This is coming from a berber so dont accuse me of cultural imperialism. People will still speak their language, wear their indigonouse clothing, have a since of racial and ethnic identoty, but their will be a unity under the flag of Islam. Its really 4 the best in my opinion. A Muslim state will fix the worlds problems in my opinion, it really would, if done right, it would set a standard it would abolish the binladins and the Talibans of the world. maya u should know that I am no longer going to suscribe to your rules of what is right and what is wrong, i am sick of your atheistic, secular way of looking at things my creator has told me what is right and what is wrong, and his word is the right word and no other word matters except his. he gave me a brain and i intend to use it.

tommy said...

Sorry, LibyanWarrior, your assertion that the Jews are, in fact, the (presumably) Turkish Khazars - an old theory promoted by Arthur Koestler, in his book "The Thirteenth Tribe" - simply doesn't hold water.

Recent genetic studies down on Ashkhenazic Jews clearly show they cluster with Sephardic Jews and that, furthermore, they have a strong relation to other Mideastern groups.

Interestingly, some genetic studies suggest that the Karaim, a small heretical sect of Judaism that rejects the "oral" Old Testament and rabbinical practices - and that has adherents in Israel and Lithuania, in fact, be the descendants of the Khazars. They even hold services in a Turkic language (which is more closely related to Kazakh and Tatar than Turkish proper).

http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_language.asp?code=KDR

You might want to start reading about the Khazars here:
http://www.khazaria.com/

Khazaria.com has speculated that the Bukharic Jews may be, in part, descended from the Khazars. I haven't seen any genetic evidence supporting this assertion, however. I believe, though I cannot state with certainty, I've read that the Bukharics appear to cluster close to other Jewish groups genetically.

Maya M said...

LW, you never stop to surprise me. YOU want an apology from ME!
Where have I insulted you personally and how?
As a friend of mine says, at the moment you resort to personal insults in an argument, you actually admit you have lost.
Remember how you called me? I even don't know what two or three of the words meant :).
You call yourself a warrior, yet you demand apology from a woman for nothing and seek help from another woman (Highlander) when your opponent (Programmer Craig) shows your own method reflected back to you.
Good luck with using your brain. And be careful with Mel Gibson - I won't be surprised if he actually does seek treatment.

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

LOl.

Wow, look at this. I cant belive my eyes, your message has a patriarchal hint in it, hell maybe even a hint of mysogony. Whats wrong with asking a women for help? Do U think that women are uncapable of being a help to a man?

WOMENS RIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOMENS RIGHTS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
STOP THE BELITTLEMENT!!!!!!!!!!
STOP THE MYSOGONY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
STOP THE HATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LIBERATE WESTERN WOMEN NOW!!!!!!!!!

i am sorry that those so called "men" in Europe have made u feel so small and insignificant, god willing Muslim forces shall come and liberate u from the man made shackles which bind u, the man made shackles which make u feel that u r not capable of helping the oppisite sex. in islam we have womens rights, and women are valued unlike in your culture. i know that in the west men do not consider u 2 be human, they dont consider u 2 have a soul. Historically in the west it has allways been regarded as a very lowly thing to have relations with a women, that why the majority of western men prefer men over women. Its sad, your rights have been infringed upon, I am sorry, and I will do all i possibly can to spread freedom in your part of the world. Keep Strong,help is on the way.

shlemazl said...

"It's hard to be in the middle ground between Shlemazl and LW alone."

There was no middle ground between

- Allies and Nazis
- Soviets and Americans

There is no middle ground between those that support terror and those that support fighting terror, except appeasement.

Admittingly some Finns thought that they have found the "middle ground" in the past. It was an illusion. Had it not been for the US we both would be speaking Russian now.

I am not impressed with you comparing LW and me. "Co-belligerance" would be a more appropriate term to use instead of your "middle ground", as you should know.

The Finnish Presidency, bless them, has tried to stab Israel from the back. As luck would have it, the Governments of Britain, Germany and the Czechs have a bit more sense.



" Israel would get more support and sympathy from the world if it acted somewhat differently. This support is an important factor in guaranteeing that Israelis will survive in their hostile environment."

Israel has all the support that she needs. There is VERY strong support in Canada, Australia and, of cause, the US. Overall the Canadian media has been very fair in reflecting the crisis. Having spent 10 years in Britain I have no doubt that AlGuardian and Hesdipendent got themselves in a tizzy, but who cares?

Muslim countries and the UN will be against Israel whatever the whether. EU will be impotent either way. Russians, Chinese and the French will think of nothing but profit and geopolitical considerations.

As for Sudan, I feel that I am doing my bit, albeit it's not much. You can donate to "Save Darfur" coalition here:

http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizationsORG/darfur/signUp.jsp?key=1421

You may find that a lot of people trying to make a difference in Darfur are North American or Jewish.

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

Well She-male is right, their is no middle ground, u either supprot the terrorists, or u are against them. She-male is a terrorist who's buddies kill little boys and girls in the middle-east and I am the good guy, who speaks out against Injustice, violence, hate, and the Judeo-Christofacist alliance against humanity. I Support fighting terrorism, I support the US going to war against Israel. I support arresting all those who support terror,(ADL)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


DAVID DUKE FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!!!!!!!

DAVID DUKE WILL SAVE THE WEST AND HE WILL SAVE THE EAST!!!!!!!!!!!!

DAVID DUKE!!!!!!!! MY HERO!!!!!!!!!

THE JEWISH TERRORISTS HAVE STRUCK AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

www.fromisraeltolebanon.org

U can help the victims of jewish terrorism below.
http://mycountry.org/


PLEASE SAVE THE KIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
STOP WAR
STOP HATE
STOP VIOLENCE
STOP JUDEO-CHRISTIAN FACISM!!!!!

shlemazl said...

Lybian Warrior,

What do you think about Adolf Hitler?

tommy said...

LibyanWarrior is the middle ground between Qaddafi and Mel Gibson.

Non-Blogging said...

Shlemazl,

"It's hard to be in the middle ground between Shlemazl and LW alone."

There was no middle ground between
- Allies and Nazis
- Soviets and Americans


Yes, those European countries (and countries elsewhere, but it's of course easier to be neutral in another continent) that managed to remain neutral. And before you claim neutrality is cowardice, remember that the Russians for example were first allies of the Nazis and later that of the US and UK. Changing sides at war is very easy seemingly.

Admittingly some Finns thought that they have found the "middle ground" in the past. It was an illusion. Had it not been for the US we both would be speaking Russian now.

That's complete crap which justifies one short comment only as it's completely out of topic in this thread. The US didn't help Finland, a small democratic country, in its fight against Stalin's dicatatorship. Rather, the US sided with the USSR by supplying it with arms and closer to the end of the war by breaking diplomatic relations with Finland while keeping them with the most brutal leader in Europe's history (reference to Stalin).

In case Finland had been occupied by the Soviet Union, I'd be speaking Finnish even today just like ethnic Baltis speak their respective languages. Besides there's of course no problem with speaking Russian or any other language if one is not forced to do that against his will.

The Finnish Presidency, bless them, has tried to stab Israel from the back. As luck would have it, the Governments of Britain, Germany and the Czechs have a bit more sense.

Sorry to say but you sound like those Arabs who think all the world's against them. If someone criticizes both warring parties, you only read the part critical of Israel and take it as a personal insult.

Israel has all the support that she needs. There is VERY strong support in Canada, Australia and, of cause, the US.

So, why do you then care if the rest of the world is against you as you seem to think? If Israel has all the support it needs, whatever the rest thinks should then be the same to you as it wouldn't endanger Israel anyway. Correct? Besides, what's wrong with as much support and sympathy as possible?

Russians, Chinese and the French will think of nothing but profit and geopolitical considerations.

Yeah, and the rest of the world cares nothing about profit and geopolitical considerations but does everything just for the sake of the good of mankind. Wake up. You criticize the three above for a very good reason but the rest of the important powers are not better.

No reason to go on debating this with you here because it's getting out of topic and nothing will change your opinions. Of course there's no reason you should change because I support freedom of opinion.

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

What do you think about Adolf Hitler?

Adlof Hitler was a evil man in my opinion, and a Zionist as well, the history is their ofr anyone to see. He put many innocent jews, amny of whom where women and children to death because they refused to turn their backs of their religion and migrate to israel. it is well know that the jewish faith prohibits the creation of zion. Hitler was a Zionist, a Terrorist, and a scum bag, Just like Ariel Sharon, and all the other Zionist Genocidal Killers. I am fairly sure he is burning in hell, and God Willing Ariel Sharon will join him their.

Non-Blogging said...

90 comments and how many of them actually commented in any way something Highlander originally posted? I admit I've also been putting some off topic stuff here but... it's been mongering for peace and other Euro-softie stuff, not for hate and war.

I'm getting tired of this constant fighting and fanatics on both sides who enjoy seeing innocent people die, whether they admit it or not. I don't care if someone insults me because I occasionally do the same myself to others as well. What I care about and am sad for is all the intentional and unintentional distorted facts, disinformation and lack of compassion here. I better take a break from commenting anything for some time (no, it's not a threat, you won't be missing too much). At no point has this conflict been my war anyway.

Try to enjoy your time fighting each other here and please at least try to create something useful from all the hate and contempt you guys have for other human beings.

Will be back when the discussion turns more normal (whatever that is). Now I have to concentrate on things I enjoy more and which make a difference at least in my own feeble life. Or find interesting blogs in other parts of the world. Suggestions are always welcome.

Will be back in some time inshallah.

Highlander said...

Thank you Adam, Craig, Libyan Warrior , NBA, Shlemazl ( who did stay), Maya,Tommy, Mitchell and 7mada for sticking around. As NBA said sometimes things got ugly or out of topic... but hopefully we all learned something . I have not commented because I thought my opinion was very clear, and I will keep clarifying it in posts as it is so hard to keep up with the comments sometimes . But I did read them all.

NBA I'm sorry you had to feel how an Arab experiences constantly being on the defensive from Israel and its supporters.
Don't go away the next post is something you will love :) I promise ....I need your wise input lol and the rest of the guys ( and ladies too )

shlemazl said...

NB

"Finland, a small democratic country, in its fight against Stalin's dicatatorship. Rather, the US sided with the USSR by supplying it with arms and closer to the end of the war by breaking diplomatic relations with Finland while keeping them with the most brutal leader in Europe's history (reference to Stalin)."

Guess I managed to get to you on this one. I meant Finnish neutrality during the Cold War. Not aware of US weapons being supplied to Stalin unless you mean WWII, in which case it was fully justified by the need to win.

However I am aware that Britain, France and the US took the "Euro-softie" position during the winter war, which in my "hate and war" prone mind stands for betrayal.

I am sure Highlander would have shouted had she objected to the discussion.

It was fun; thank you. I even modified my approach to one issue as a result of the discussions we've had.

Maya M said...

I wish to state that I do not enjoy the death of innocent people. All I said was that if a war is inevitable, I accept also a number of civilian deaths as inevitable, because nobody has yet discovered another way to fight a war. I've never been in the Army, but I imagine it goes this way: the enemy is firing at us, we try to locate where the fire is coming from, then bomb the place to destroy the launching machinery and the remaining rockets and to kill the enemy fighters. If there are also civilians, it's a pity, but what could we do? We hadn't put them there! On dry land, civilians could be anywhere.
I am not so cruel to wish the death of babies just because of their poor luck to be born to Islamist fathers. Neither am I so stupid to enjoy events that can only harm our cause.
Many people stressed that if every killing of civilians by Western troops is condemned globally, discussed in the UN and serves as a reason to demand cease-fire, this means easy victory for the Islamists. I also think that it sounds like care for human life but, in the long run, means MORE Muslim civilian casualties. If Hezbollah had no benefit from putting civilians in the harm's way, next time they would possibly send their wives and kids away. It is similar to hostage-taking. If you follow your agenda regardless of kidnappers' demands, your hostages are likely to be killed and you will seem the cruelest in the world. But you will save people who otherwise would become hostages later. If instead you appease the kidnappers, you only encourage more kidnappings.