Saturday, July 15, 2006

Ranting about the Gaza situation -The updated version 14/7/06

I made this post three days ago, it was obviously half baked. Here is the completed version. Your comments on the previous version are safe and will be replied to in time . Hope you enjoy the rest of my rant.

By popular demand I bring you a controversial post. Please make the discussion heated but civil ;)

You think I'm ignoring what's going on in Gaza ? nope, however I'm not surprised, that is why I have not mentioned it at all. The most I can say is to repeat the words of a friend of mine 'both parties have blood on their hands now , they need to wake up and realise this for peace to become possible'.
Methinks with things being as they are, nothing is going to be solved for a long time to come. Maybe we should just stop caring about Palestine and let Israel crush them? Is that it ? That is the best solution? no heartache and no feeling of guilt anymore for having our hands tied.Just carry on like the international community - look the other way -I might just do that . Here is what may be my last rant about it( ps I reserve the right to change my mind of course) . When you can't beat them join them.

But here are interesting excerpts from Alarabonline, which get the blood boiling and the heart swelling and bring us back to square one.

"What the world is offering the Palestinians is a deal they are obliged to
refuse – even at the point of Israel’s murderous war machine. They are being
asked to legitimize their own dispossession as the price of living unmolested on
a few isolated patches of their ancestral land [...] I wake up every
morning and thank God I am not a Palestinian. These descendents of
the ancients who gave us the Abrahamic liturgy that still enthralls the hearts
of half the human race are being crucified because of a weird cult of Zionist
ideologues who are delusional enough about their fictional ancestry to lay claim
to Palestinian land and Palestinian prophets. "

I wanted to hear opposite arguments, but I realised that the opposite view is easier to backup (not necessarily because it is the truth) , which is what many of you have attempted to do on many blogs throughout the months.
Problem is with each escalation the original problem gets pushed back as we have to deal with a fresh situation. This again is a vicious circle.

Israel is a fact of life which many of us have accepted, wishing it would go away is just that wishful thinking. The warmongering crowd should stop their wild speculation and 'give peace a chance'.

Because each side has its own version of history and the outsiders should please stop interfering and increasing the flow of blood your comments cheering and enjoying the death of this and that are just NOT helpful. Please let the two people of the Middle-East alone.


"In that sense the crisis in Gaza is business as usual.
The Israelis and Palestinians are levelling the same accusations against each other, accusing each other of terrorism and oppression. Both believe that they are acting in self defence.
Forget whether one version is true and the other false. The important thing is that the people who hold these views believe that they are true, and their leaders make decisions based on them. "

So

"when leaders are under intense pressure, they fall back on some of the old formulas that have been tried - and which have failed - many times before. "

However,

"But in the 39 years since Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza, history has delivered a few fundamental lessons, which neither side at the moment is in any mood to absorb.
The most important lesson for Israel [and Palestine] is that force does not work. "

Moreover,

"Even if the leaders of Israel and the Palestinians agreed with this interpretation of the use of force over 40 years, it will not help this time round. The Gaza crisis is doomed to run its course, in the same way that Palestinians and Israelis are doomed to live alongside each other.
But eventually, their only chance of creating a decent future for their children is to make a political agreement about sharing the land between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean that is acceptable to both sides.
To do that they will both have to recognise that peace has a price. Up to now, in all the years of negotiations, neither side has been prepared to pay what is needed in lost dreams and hard choices.
You cannot do peace on the cheap. But the alternative is much more costly, for everyone."

Here is the whole BBC article , please go read it.

The alternative we've been witnessing for the last few days is "Becoming Israel's greatest enemy" and dragging the neighbours in the mess. With death on all sides ( of course the greater casualties are amongthe Arabs). So as I said above an issue drives the old one away and Lebanon has pushed Gaza and even Iraq ( that's a relief for some I bet ) out of the front page news, while the Gaza situation has lead to the Lebanese new crisis which threatens to bring in other countries. Making peace seems like a distant dream now. So sad....may God rest the dead , the dying and those about to die in Peace . It does not matter whether they are Israelis or Arabs , death is the same to all.

61 comments:

programmer craig said...

Welcome back! I haven't had time to read the updated version of the post but I will ASAP :)

khadijateri said...

I have not been able to bear to watch or read the news. Hubby is glued to the TV and in a very cranky mood! - Finally I suggested to go in the storage room and pull out a suitcase and pack it for him. He looked at me like I had gone mad - I'm married to a sofa warrior!

There is nothing much to do but pray......

AlanK said...

glad your back highlander

as for post, did post few comments before. also to say quite disappointed with reactions of some american representatives eg john bolton at un. how he got that appointment I dont know, he is the one that warned that cuba was building biological weapons.

basically instead of trying to get a ceasefire, trying to allow this fighting to go on.

programmer craig said...

AlanK,

basically instead of trying to get a ceasefire, trying to allow this fighting to go on.

Don't know about Israelis, but this is one American that is not interested in a brokered ceasefire in Lebanon. I want Hezbollah disarmed or destroyed. Preferably destroyed. What good does following 30 year old policies of aggression/ceasefire do? Wars have to end sooner or later, the implication of which is that somebody has to actually LOSE.

How do you feel about UN resolutions calling for the disarming of Hezbollah and Palestinian militias in Lebanon having been ignored?

John Bolton is our ambassador to the UN. How do you think he should feel about that?

If the Israelis want to negotiate a ceasefire that leaves Hezbollah more of a threat than ever, that's up to them. But I certainly oppose the US (my country) trying to exert pressure on Israel to do something that is so clearly foolish, and counter to American interests. The only acceptable end to the violence to me is one that leaves Hezbollah in the dustbin of history.

programmer craig said...

BTW, AlanK, Hezbollah is not HAMAS. Hezbollah has murdered hundreds of Americans, and thousands of of people outside of Lebanon. Literally, thousands. I consider Hezbollah to be every bit as much an enemy of the United States as Al Qaeda is. Would you seriously suggest that the US should engage in "ceasefire" discussion with Al Qaeda!? Do you hate the US so much?

removedalready said...

something needs to be done, I think the bombings will not end! Some may say that the Arabs are the ones who started this whole thing! Is there a story behind it? The Kidnapping? Could it have been something happening without us knowing? Something which had angered them?

Anonymous said...

PC........You have been trying to destroy HA for the last 25/30 odd years...What happened? Every time, they kicked your sorry hinies back to oblivion.....Your troops came and gone.... so did the cheese eating surrender monkies......and finally minime of the US had to flee on the 25 of May 2000....like always.....Yeah right.... you wanna destroy them from the comfort of your own chair....you great internet warrior.....as one loser said before "bring it own"..... We will see who is the last man standing.... and it won't be the whinning/whinging terrorists you support....

God Bless HA/ Hamas / and everybody making a stand against occupation and state sponsored terrorism

Redneck

Anonymous said...

Redenclave,

I have to disagree with you about the arabs have started this statement you have said.... Israelhas been esclalting its violent attacks against Gaza since Hamas took office (democratically I might add) through various means....They kidnapped/killed members of government, although there was a talk of Hamas offering an olive branch to those terrorists...In the end enougg is enough....there comes a moment where you have to make a stance....
As for HA.... Israel simply reneged on the deal they had last year with regards exchange of prisoners....Once they got the info...they stopped releasing the Lebanese and other prisoners.....The German negotiaters have stated that the terrorists (That is Israel for you PC) did not complete their side of the bargain....which is expected....they never do anyway....Just remember few years ago....when they had a deal with HA not to target civilians....guess what...first sign of tension...and they attack defenseless civilians....retarded terrorists...HA was within its right to act....it has prisoners and it needs to get them back...it is that simple....had the terrorists kept their side of the bargain....none of this shit (Sorry Highlander) would have happened...

God Bless HA/Hamas

Sameer Kintaar.....you will never be forgotten

Redneck

removedalready said...

Anonymous / redneck
I am not attacking hamas or hezbollah. I am just saying that there may be something which triggered them to do so! You have actually answered my questions. I know and understand that Israel and its allies do not want to see hamas administering palestine. Lets just say whatever I believe in I don't want to mention it here, privately perhaps!

Maya M said...

I'm glad that the post is here again, I was afraid I had written something so awful that Highlander decided to delete the whole post.
I disagree with the cited author that "The most important lesson for Israel [and Palestine] is that force does not work." On the contrary, the most important lesson is that insufficient force does not work. Remember what force was necessary to end WWII? Carpet bombings of German cities, nuclear bombings of Japanese cities, hundreds of thousands dead in both cases. In addition, hundreds of thousands of refugees were ehtnically cleansed all across Europe, often let with little chance to reach safety. Just to mention the 10000 Germans expelled from East Prussia (6000 of them children) who died after their ship Wilhelm Gustlof was sunk by a Soviet submarine. Have Palestinians experienced anything of the kind?
I guess you want to ask me: Do you approve such acts?
My answer: I strongly disapprove letting things go so out of control to make such acts necessary.
Possibly Bulgaria is a good example because it was pacified with much less lethal force. Like almost all European nations, Bulgarians were unhappy with the lands they had. (As I mentioned in my earlier comment, Palestinians only THINK their situation is unique, in fact it's banal.) Huge territories with ethnic Bulgarian majority were left ouside Bulgaria. With the hope of joining them, Bulgaria made two Balkan wars in 1912-13 and took part in both World wars, at the losing side. In 1944, Bulgaria was bombed by US and British forces (nothing special, several thousand dead), then occupied by USSR and given to the latter. Our representatives were told that if Bulgarians want to have some land, and if they want it beneath their feet rather than above their heads, they must sit quietly on their asses and never again think about making war. Eh well, the words may not have been exactly these, but the language must have been strong. And this strong medicine worked. The Serbs, with at least as bad record as the Bulgarians, were patted on the back because they happened to choose the winning side. This is why they set the Balkans on fire in the 1990s, and kept the fire until the bad Americans came to drop some bombs on their heads.
Another part I disagree: "Their only chance... is to... share the land between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean... acceptable to both sides... Up to now, in all the years of negotiations, neither side has been prepared to pay what is needed in lost dreams and hard choices."
OK, the Israelis lost the dream of Gaza and got in return what? Qassam rockets, tunnels, murders, kidnappings and pledges to continuing the struggle until "liberating all Palestine". There is no sharing of land acceptable to both sides, because the Palestinians want all the land. How can you share land with people who have on average 6 to 8 children (in the West Bank and Gaza, respectively)? A nation with such a birth rate wants, consciously or subconsciously, to push all other people off the Earth. You cannot negotiate with such people, you just have to prove them, day by day, that you disagree with being pushed off the Earth and have enough weapons to prevent it.
Besides, the Palestinians (unlike Germans, Japanese and Bulgarians at any point in history) receive money in return for the opposite of peace. UNRWA supports the Palestinian refugees for being refugees, i.e. for repeating their claims to return to Israel. Arabs and other Muslims support Palestinians for their struggle against Israel. Additionally, the West supports them for God knows what reason. As far as I know, these are the main sources of Palestinian national income. So the Palestinians are not the first people with genocidal culture (at least the Germans were before them), but seem to be the first people with genocidal economy.
How do you expect them to become peaceful? If they do, they'll watch their babies starve! Or at least they have the reason to think so.
BTW I have the solution to the Palestinian problem, if somebody's interested.

programmer craig said...

Sameer Kintaar.....you will never be forgotten

That tells me all I need to know about you, Palestinian Terrorist Redneck.

RedEnclave, I'm dissappointed in you. Do you know who he is glorifying there?

AlanK said...

P craig

I agree that it was hezbollah fault that the crisis started by attacking the soldiers and then kidnapping them.

As for the solution, purely military means has so far not encouraged the lebanon goverment to disarm hezbollah (if it even tried, that would lead to collapse of the goverment as hezbollah is much more powerful and better armed. This is reason why UN resolution not been kept, also same reason why hamas not disarmed by fatah, before it was elected to become the goverment).

A ceasefire now could at least lead to something different, as use of military force has not proved to be deterrant to kidnapping eg gaza kidnapping response did not deter hezbollah, if fact it appears that what is happening now is exactly what hezbollah wants, as it was struggling after isreal left lebannon, as it had no reason for its existance, so it needs isreal to attack lebannon to strengthen it. In the end, hezbollah will not be destroyed as any losses it suffers eg missiles destroyed will be replaced by its backers eg Iran/Syria and to attack them, would trigger a major disaster and turn this into a bigger crisis.

as for hating america, no not so. however not big fan of certain people. condolezza rice seems to have given out a slightly more balanced approach to this crisis

redneck

god bless mass murders? a suprising choice

Anonymous said...

PC...I guess for you, taking a bullet in the head is more offensive, than receiving a 2 ton bomb (Made in the USA) wiping an entire families including children.

http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2006/07/i-have-just-received-these-pictures.html

The short of it...they kicked your hinies in 1983, will do it again if needed...

God bless and protect them.

Sameer kintaar...you will never be forgotten

Redneck

Anonymous said...

Alan K,

Mass Murders eh???

Generalisation like that do not wash anymore....we are not some dumb americans believing whatever their news outlets are regurgitating.

Either prove your argument with beyond doubt facts (Memri stuff does not count here ;)) or for ever hold your peace.

Thanks

Redneck

Anonymous said...

redneck

ok that was a little over generalised

but you do have to admit, that they do deliberately target civilians as a primary target

eg suicide bombings in cafes, target civilians without any military reason

admitedly isreal has not behaved much better in this situation, although they do tend to try to target military, not civilian targets

Anonymous said...

"Mon Jul 17, 10:44:42 PM 2006
Anonymous"

With all due respect, your argument with regards to Israel trying to hit military targets, does not have a leg to stand on....Israel in all of its wars, consistantly has targeted civilians populations in the hope that panic/civil strife etc... might break the enemy...and every time it gets it wrong....

I for one did question the logic behind HA's latest operation...did not see what benefit it woul bring...although Israel did renege on previous agreements....but once civilians started getting deliberatly getting targeted...i have changed my stance towards HA, and now hope that their missiles do even greater damage...

Redneck

programmer craig said...

AlanK,


A ceasefire now could at least lead to something different

But, that's not something different. That's exactly what the result has been every other time violence has gone from isolated incidents to outright warfare. A ceasfire agreement that everyone ignores.

Something "different" would be to allow this to play out to the bitter end. Maybe a sceasefire will be honored, once people have sufferred enough that they no longer want war. We aren't anywhere near that point, right now. Arabs do not want peace with Israel. Look at what this redneck tpalestinians is saying. You think he's the only one who thinks that way? He is one of the people who dances on the streets when Jews or Westerners are killed.

as use of military force has not proved to be deterrant to kidnapping eg gaza kidnapping response did not deter hezbollah

What caused the kidnappings, is terrorists having been rewarded in the past, for hostage taking. Goes back to Munich in 1973. They always geta benefical result from hostage taking. Never a bad result. Why shouldn't they take hostages? You have to remember, AlanK, we're dealing with people who have child-like minds. I again point to this Palestinian Redneck guy as proof. He's a spolied little boy, bullying, threatening and ready to throw a temper tantrum if his will is thwarted.

Anonymous said...

PC...the more you write...the more you look like a twat...
Munich was in 1972 not 1973.... and it was a direct result of Israeli terrorism in 1971 in Jordan and Lebanon against defenseless civilians.....but of course, let us not tax our minds and contradict Steven Spielberg's version of events,his version is easier to digest for mind numb americans such as your very good self....

So here is a little assignement for you since you have been a good boy and looked up who sameer Kintaar was.....you will need to look up those names...

Wail Zuyatir
Ghassan kanafani
Bassam Abu Sharif
Anis Sayigh

Ignorance is indeed bliss for you...

God Bless HA/Hamas

Semper Fi an dall that crap

Redneck

programmer craig said...

PC...the more you write...the more you look like a twat...

The more you post, the more you look like an un-repentant terrorist :)

Careful who you say Semper Fi too. Semper Fidelis is the Marine Corps motto. A marine may say that to you right before he kills you some day.
Or, maybe I'll say it to him, right after :P

programmer craig said...

Redneck Palestinian, did you just get out of Guantanmo Bay by any chance? I ahven't seen you around here before, and it occurred to me they just let about 400 peopel go about 2 weeks ago :)

Openly supporting Hezbollah is a pretty good way to get sent back, you know. Hezbollah is no better than Al Qaeda as far as the US is concerned. Hezbollah has commited hundreds of terrorist acts against Americans. You will get your ass arrested for that. Somebody is probably monitoring you right now. Just so you know :)

removedalready said...

PC

I do not agree with both Israel & Hamas/Hebollah. I think both are at fault. One must have triggered the other to cause such pain. Let us not point fingers. But you have to agree with me that Israel oppose to Hamas holding power. Why did the Palestinians vote for Hamas? Maybe they were not satisfies with the PLO? Only those living in Palestine would know the answer while we are presuming and arguing about the problems they are facing.

But I would like to question the rest of the arab nation. What are they doing? Can they find a solution especially those who have good rrelation with both Israel & Palestine?

Anonymous said...

PC....I'm not exactly sure how you came to the conclusion of me being a terrorist..... Is it the fact that I disagree with your retarded arguments and have shown their shallowness....Is it too much for you to do some research on your very own, instead of depending on Fox news for unbiased reporting... I know it is hard to tax your brains, but hey you have to excersice the grey fluff between your ears....

So who is the terrorist PC??.... You know jackshit about me, yet still threatened to kill me, and infact contradicted your very own words.

"Look at what this redneck tpalestinians is saying. You think he's the only one who thinks that way? He is one of the people who dances on the streets when Jews or Westerners are killed."

and later on

"Careful who you say Semper Fi too. Semper Fidelis is the Marine Corps motto. A marine may say that to you right before he kills you some day.
Or, maybe I'll say it to him, right after :P"

Who is actually rejoicing for murder..... Yes indeed....it is the ugly american....

Honestly highlander ....what kind of psychopaths do u pull to your blog....some bulgarian girl who is openly rooting for genocide, and sees it as a bit of fun.....and a nutcase who threatens to kill people because they happen to disagree with what he believes in.... Jeeez HL...Just be careful and stay stuff

God Bless HA/Hamas

Laterzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

programmer craig said...

RE,

Let us not point fingers.

That's OK for you but I don't have that option. Hezbollah has killed hundreds of Americans, including personal friends of mine. I'm not neutral. And my country is not neutral, either.

Hezbollah is not HAMAS. HAMAS has not yet murdered anybody but Jews in Israel. HAMAS is Israel's problem. Hezbollah is my problem, and America's problem. If you tie HAMAS to Hezbollah (successfully) then the US will have to take the position that HAMAS must also be destroyed. A dangerous game for Palestinians to play. Palestinians have been very careful not to make terror attacks on Americans all these years. If HAMAS really is an enemy of the US, why does everyone keep demanding that the US send aid to HAMAS?

Terrorist redneck,

PC....I'm not exactly sure how you came to the conclusion of me being a terrorist....

Really?

God Bless HA/Hamas

You are either a terrorist or a supporter of terrorists. Don't make much difference to me which that is. It's a trivilaty whether you merely act as an enabler of terrorism or an active particpant. You deserve to be locked up or killed. And if Americans can get ahold of you, one of those two things will happen.

programmer craig said...

By the way, Palestinian Terrorist, where the hell you been the last 5 years that you think it's OK to openly support an international terrorist group? Haven't you noticed how many people are being arrested and prosecuted for doing that?

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

God Bless Hamas and the brave Lebonese resistance fighters. thats all I have 2 say i do not want 2 engage in this one. Just came to show my support for the "Terrorists". Only terrorist is Israel, and thats the end of it, i am a Muslim and i support the Muslims U r a Christian and u Support the Jews. U have your faith and i have mine, but dont call me a terrorist if I support my people. its like a football game, u dont call the opposing teams supporters terrorists. What else can I say. Craig wants 2 deny israel has done anything wrong. They are defending themselves, andGeuss what we are going to defend outselves as well. If the US supports Israel, then i geuss America and Israel r tied toghther in your logic? So if israel is the enemy then so is America? Sorry about your friend, i really do mean that, but u have 2 understand that he or she was a grown adult and they made a decision to go to war, to go to others lands and show a military presence their and well that comes with the territory. If the Leb army came to the US the same thing would happen. Once again sorry about your friend.


Anonymouse:) I agree with pretty much everything u say, and I see where U r coming from.

Alan K:)

I agree that it was hezbollah fault that the crisis started by attacking the soldiers and then kidnapping them.

I aggree it was the afult of Israel for stealing Palistinain land, and for the US backing them.

R.I.P to all those who have lost their lives to Jewish Terrorism. Its Bible in my opinion. the Judeo-Christian faiths need reformation.

Maya M said...

Redneck, why do you think you are the only one with the right to openly root for genocide? I'm just wondering.
Redenclave, I agree with you that other (non-Palestinian) Arabs must help; indeed, as I see the things, lasting piece can be achieved only if Egypt and Jordan take key roles. Unfortunately, I agree also with Programmer Craig that Arabs as a whole don't want peace with Israel.
I often write about the Palestinians as if only they are to blame. In fact, it is difficult for such a small community to sink so deeply in the sticky mud all by themselves. Other forces did what they could: the UN, the Western leftists, the traditional European anti-Semites, Russia and, above all, the Muslim/Arab world. I recently wrote on my blog that without these "helpers" the Palestinians by now would have been an unremarkable community of olive producers. As the old proverb says, God save me from my friends, I'll deal somehow with my enemies.
The Palestinians should think, "Our Arab brothers hail us as heroes for our struggle against Israel. They send us crumbs from their petrodollars so that we continue our struggle. After our cause is so glorious, why don't they come here and bring their children under the fire? We are modest and will leave for them the honour to be heroes. We could instead move to their homes and try some boring non-heroic life."

Maya M said...

LW, glad to see you back! I was missing you and your Us and Rs!
I agree with much of your comment. Namely, that the opposing sides are unreconcialble and the war is to continue until one of them LOSES. There must be something true in this after you think the same as me and Programmer Craig!
What did you mean by saying that you know where Anonimous (Redneck) is coming from? My guess is that he (or she - but "he" seems more probable) is from a Western country, most likely USA, like you.

Libyan Warrior( KING OF AL-ANDLUS) said...

Hey Maya M great 2 hear from u to.lol. I think I do understand where u r coming from, while no one likes dead bodies and war, its a fact, its human nature and its going to happen, and the side that holds less restrained is the side that will win. Their can only Be one, thats war. I think liberal mindsets have screwed everyone up. I will be totally honest with ya, If i was a European Christian and I saw the muslims in the west i would probably slaughter them, kill them, or round them up and ship them back where they came from. Even though this statement would include me right now. Or maybe not, the demographics are much more difficult in the US the in Europe, Cuz the Europe has a REAL indigonuse culture. All in All Liberalism, and Humanism, and Moral Relativism are abnormal and they go against rational in my opinion. Peace is complete and absolute stupidity, their can only be peace through superior firepower, or better yet peace through superior firepower and the will 2 use it. u also have another good point about socialism, and the Olive production, in my opinion socialism is a weapon disgusied as aid. Everyone know this. I cant speak for every one else but i do not want 2 see a 2 state solution, I only want 2 see a Palistine. Anything less is unacceptable. As far as seeing where anonymouse came from, it has a bit 2 do with that.

Maya M said...

This is inspired by LW's last comment, the others please excuse me for deviating from the main subject.
I actually have no first-hand experience from the West-European countries that are now threatened by Muslim immigration. I have heard several reasons for this immigration to be allowed - some noble, some not quite. At any rate, West-Europeans had to react when the problem became evident, i.e. when the first mosques appeared on Western soil. Then the door had to be closed. It isn't closed even now, and I think that when Europe finally sinks, many native Europeans will be kept above the water by their empty heads. But I wouldn't blame anybody for letting in the first immigrants. Except for the neo-Nazis eager to turn into soap everybody differing even slightly from their mirror image, NOBODY could predict the immigrants' behaviour.
First, most Europeans are secular and don't even understand how one could be religious in the age of technology. I know only 2 people who are Christian and both believe not in the "original" Christianity but in some reformed and highly modified (by themselves) version. Most of our Muslims are also secular. For me, the religiousness of Mideast inhabitants and emigrants, their clinging to 7th century beliefs is still incomprehensible. I see it as a fact, but cannot understand it.
Second, even those Europeans who knew about the sincere religiousness in the Muslim world didn't expect it from those emigrating from it and coming to the West. They were regarded as a kind of refugees - if not political, then at least cultural. Europe had twice before in the 20th century accepted large masses from hostile cultures. First, Communist revolution drove many "white" supporters off Soviet Russia. Then, Hitler's coming to power also caused massive emigration. In none of these cases the emigrants/immigrants made any attempt to make their new host countries totalitarian. It was logical: they had emigrated exactly because they didn't want to live in a totalitarian society. Who, except a desperate racist or xenophobe, could predict that the Muslim immigrants would be different?
I grew up in a society that was an official enemy of the West. Nevertheless, Western culture had magnetic attractiveness for me and my peers (although it often seemed doomed). Those who have no freedom are expected to long for it, and those who have it are expected to cherish it. Before seeing it in the news, I could never foresee that sane, intelligent people would not only kill others but lay down their own lives in an effort to extinguish freedom from the world. And least of all I understand people like you who have grown in the West and still regard it as their enemy. Perhaps the Western society has failed you somehow, perhaps it has defects I cannot see but you do. I really wish to know why you feel the way you do.
I suppose Redneck is a US "palestinian" because "redneck" isn't among the first 800 English words, I had to look in a dictionary, so I think he is a native English speaker or at least lives among them. Besides, he expresses radical views, much more radical that those of Mideasterners here (Highlander and Khadija-Teri), so it's logical for him to be a Westerner, like you.

programmer craig said...

LW, glad to see you show up and support your fellow jihadi! Even if he is a palestinian!

God Bless Hamas and the brave Lebonese resistance fighters.

You even use the exact same phrase!

i am a Muslim and i support the Muslims

Are you a shia? Hezbollah has a lot of muslim blood on it's hands, you know... in Lebanon and Iraq both. I suspect they'd kill you too, if they ever had a chance. I never heard of a Libyan shia. Hezbollah has killed more muslims than Christians and Jews combined. But go ahead, knock yourself out. Support your own doom. Seems to be your version of the Islamic way, right?

U r a Christian and u Support the Jews.

No. I support my country. Not my religion. I would never wage war or advocate waging war in the name of religion. You see, I don't think God wants people to kill each other in His name. That's what makes you and I different. You have no nationality. You have no ethnicity. You have only a religious identity. And you'll advocate killing anyone who doesn't share it, until one of them kills you first. Same as Hezbollah. But not the same as HAMAS. HAMAS is doing the bidding of Iran right now, but it's only out of convenience. Hezbollah is something very different from HAMAS.

U have your faith and i have mine, but dont call me a terrorist if I support my people.

Why not? You *are* a terrorist. You just admitted that you are. Or a wannabe at least. Embrace your destiny :D

its like a football game, u dont call the opposing teams supporters terrorists.

We're at war with terrorists, and have been since September 11th, 2001. What would you suggest we call our enemies in this war on terrorism? :P

What else can I say. Craig wants 2 deny israel has done anything wrong.

I didn't even mention Israel. You did. I mentioned the international terrorist organization Hezbollah, responsible for the deaths of hundreds of AMericans, for plane hijackings, for embassy bombings, for political assinations, the murder of dissidents, hostage takings by the score, murder of journalists, suicide bombings by the dozen, car bombings, etc.

If I printed a list of every terrorist act Hezbollah has committed since 1982, it would be an inch thick.

Sorry about your friend, i really do mean that, but u have 2 understand that he or she was a grown adult and they made a decision to go to war

Nope. We were sent to help your buddy Yassir Arafat, and your friends the PLO, escape to Tunisia. Not to go to war. It was a peace plan. We were peace keepers.

In any case, you are still supporting terrorists who have murdered hundresd of Americans. Hezbollah did a car bombing at the US embassy in Beirut in (I think) April of 83... more than 6 months before the Barracks Bombing on 23 OCT 83. What do you call people who blow up diplomats at their embassy (which is also YOUR embassy, you so-called American), Libyan Warrior?

That's right. Terrorists.

How many Americans did Hezbollah take hostage in Lebanon in the 1980s? Journalists, college professors, tourists.... what did they do to deserve that?

What did the people on international flights do to deserve being hijacked, Libyan Warrior?

What?

You call on God to protect murderers? The murderers of your own countrymen?

I honestly hope you do get arrested and prosecuted for your comments.

Furthermore, since your comments here are (by definition) treason, I hope your US citizenship is revoked. Should be no problem for you, since you have Libyan citizenship also.

But I'd rather you shoot off your mouth about Hezbollah around somebody who is old enough to remember just who exactly Hezbollah is, and what they have done, and they decide to send you home to your momma in a wheelchair.

This isn't a fucking game. You want to be an enemy of America I suggest you get the hell out of the United States. We are at war, and you are the enemy. I'm not the only person in America who was taught to kill my enemies. You're somewhere in the SE US, right? Why don't you stroll over to MCB Camp Lejeune and praise Hezbollah. They lost 241 of their own in Lebanon in 1983. And believe me, they remember who Hezbollah is. Test my theory. See what happens. You might even survive long enough to be put on trial.

programmer craig said...

Maya, redneck is a derogatory term for whites of european ancestry, here in the US. No idea why that one terrorism suspect decided to call himself a redneck when he obviously isn't one... maybe he thought it would be funny.

Anonymous said...

It just shows your limited intellectual capability that you dont know where the term "redneck" is derived from... You dont even know your "american" history, infact can you even point out where the hell is your country on the map? or are you as dumb as your high school students

God Bless Hamas/HA

Redneck

Adam said...

Redneck
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In modern usage, the term redneck predominantly refers to a particular stereotype of individuals living in Appalachia, the Southern United States, the Ozarks, and later the Rocky Mountain States.
The word can be used either as a pejorative or as a matter of pride, depending on context.

programmer craig said...

Adam,

In modern usage

There is no "modern" usage. That's like saying there's a modern usage of the word "ni$%er". See how I'm not even allowed to spell it out because I'm not black?

the term redneck predominantly refers to a particular stereotype of individuals living in Appalachia, the Southern United States, the Ozarks, and later the Rocky Mountain States.

This is flatly false. It doesn't refer to "individuals" it refers to WHITE PEOPLE of NORTHERN EUROPEAN Ancestry. The regions described happen to be regions in which individuals of that ancestry make up a majority of the population.

The word can be used either as a pejorative or as a matter of pride, depending on context.

No. Not depending on "context" - depending on who says it. Just like the N word, the only people who can say it without it being an insult are people like me, because I'm part of the group that is subject to being called a redneck. It's a racist insult when anyone else says it. And it always has been.

Anybody who says different is just trying to justify racism, Adam.

As this so-called redneck did here:

infact can you even point out where the hell is your country on the map? or are you as dumb as your high school students

You see? That's the sterotype of a dumb redneck. He knows what he is doing. He's a bigot as well as a terrorist. But I guess all terrorists and all their supporters are bigots, right? I mean, killing people (or wanting them killed) because they aren't the same religion as you is about as bad as bigotry can get, right?

So, his bigotry is least of the problems I have with him. A trivialty, in fact. Why are we focussing on that, when he is advocating murder?

Adam said...

As for "Redneck" I just quoted Wikipedia, one of the most trusted and acclaimed online encyclopedias. You two seemed to have pretty differing views on the term. I did not in any way comment on how the self-nominated "Redneck" here uses the term.

And Craig, we disagree on most things but at least we agree that what Isreael are doing in Gaza and Southern Lebanon are two different things. I still am keen to hear your reply in my previous (deleted) question to you about Gaza. (The fresh-water supplies among other things).

And now, please let me ask you something which might appear off topic, but in my view, puts a perspective on things. The Hizbollah have killed hundreds of American citizens, over the last few decades. And they have killed several of your friends and you hate their F*****G guts. Fair enough.

But just how many Americans are murdered by Americans in violent crime every year? I think it is around 10.000 people, but if you have a more exact number, share it with us. Do you feel that your government is using its budget wisely, when it comes to saving American lives? What if law enforcement spending would be increased by just a tiny fraction of a fraction of what is spent in Iraq?

programmer craig said...

Hi Adam,

Discussion about whether or not a racist term is a racist term is moot. If I made a Wikipedia entry explaining how calling an arab "raghead" was actually a compliment, would that make it true? I'm going to bow out of any further discussion of the meaning of the word, as the discussion itself is racist, in my opinion. It's not a big deal. Lots of people are racist against white people in the US. It borders on being socially acceptable. I just wanted to point out (to those who may not know any better) that it is indeed a racist term, and using it around rednecks - I can say that because I could be considered one - can draw an unpleasant violent reaction. Particularly if the person you call a redneck really *is* a redneck. They aren't known as reasonable and level headed folks :)

And Craig, we disagree on most things but at least we agree that what Isreael are doing in Gaza and Southern Lebanon are two different things.

I'm not so sure we do agree on that. My position is that HAMAS and Hezbollah are unrelated entities, with unrelated goals.

I still am keen to hear your reply in my previous (deleted) question to you about Gaza. (The fresh-water supplies among other things).

I was planning on answering that comment. However, I don't recall what was said anymore. Can you reframe it for me?

But just how many Americans are murdered by Americans in violent crime every year? I think it is around 10.000 people, but if you have a more exact number, share it with us.

I have no idea what the number is. I do know it's been falling since the 80s, but America is still a violent society.

Do you feel that your government is using its budget wisely, when it comes to saving American lives?

I'm not signing off on that analogy. Criminal violence is handled by the justice system and the police. We do not have that option when dealing with acts of violence committed against us on a state level over seas. Such things are resolved by diplomacy or war. If the Lebanese government would disarm Hezbollah, and send Hezbollah criminals who have committed crimes against the US to America for trial, that would be an acceptable diplomatic solution. Likewise, if Iran would send us the thousands of so-called students who seized our embassy in Tehran and held our diplomats hostage in 1979, to be prosecuted for kidnapping, that would be an acceptable diplomatic soultion.

However, these things haven't happened. So it's war.

What if law enforcement spending would be increased by just a tiny fraction of a fraction of what is spent in Iraq?

What if it was? The quest to end crime is as endless and futile as the quest to end war.

But to go along with your thinking... a better way to reduce the murder rate would be to lower judicial standards for prosecution and conviction. Police usually know who the murderers are. The difficulty is in making a winnable legal case against them. We could just let cops haul murders off and dispose of them quietly, like other countries do. Repeat offenders are also a makor source of violent crime. The "3 strikes" law has helped tremedously (third violent felony = life in prison without parole) but violent crime almost always ends up in murder sooner or later. Criminals practice a type of progressive behavior - their crimes get worse and worse over time. Why not just lock people up forever, the first time they are convicted of a violent crime?

But that's not the way our system is set up. For better or for worse.

Even this Libyan Warrior gets to talk treason and advocate murder, until he crosses some "red line" and the feds pick him up and prosecute him. Why can't we just lock him up now? It's obvious where he's heading.

Such is life in America. And we (usually) like it that way. I'm a Libertarian myself and I generally believe the rights of the individual outweigh the concerns of the state.

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

Craig:)

It refers to fair Skinned people who work out doors and their necks turn red when they hit the sun. These people are hence labeled rednecks. i never said I supported Hizboallah, I support the indiviual who is protecting his country for the terroristic Jew invasion, the individual man women and child, who bares arms to defend his people. u r not looking at the big picture, u only see what u wanna see. I am not a terrorist, far from being one, I am just a guy with a opinion.lol. though u supported freedom of speach? Geuss not. Stop threatening 2 kill me PC, I never threatened any violence towards u or the US, so please do me the similar courtsy. Highlander please censor Mr.PC's terroristic threats towards me, i do not like being threatened with bodily harm. Thank U, Your post is much appreciated. Take care Highlander, and PC, May i suggest that u lighten up a bit, all this stress is not good 4 u friend.

Adam said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Adam said...

Hey Craig,

neither did I assign too much importance to my Wiki reference but your (first) reaction to it was rather strong so I just wanted to explain myself. I always thought of the term as pretty derogatory. So I found the entry surprising and interesting. If they were wrong, too bad. So exit Wiki/Redneck.

As for Lebanon and Hizbollah I personally think the Lebanese (people as well as governement) would be happy too see them disappear. But they lack the means to throw them out. The Hizbollah are simply too strong, and Lebanon has been weakened by (almost) constant wars. So I say that talk like "They deserve it, they made thier own mess" is grossly over-simplified.

Hizbollah was the aggressor this time and I too would be happy to see Hizbollah disappear (by an act of God, by a glitch in the time-space-continuum or by a bit of black magic) but I find what Israel are doing today is highly unjust, counter-productive and blatantly dishonest.

Unjust because the amount of civilian deaths and distroyed infrastructure is disproportionate beyond reason to the number of Hizbollah members killed. And the suffering of the Lebanese surpasses the suffering of the Israeli by more ballparks than we can count.

Counter-productive becuase I believe that terrorism does not breed off genes (or books as some claim), it breeds off anger. Take away the anger, (i.e. let the Pallies be), and you have taken away most of the the ground that breeds terror. If you kill 20 "terrorists a.k.a freedom fighters" and 200 civilians, you have most probably created more fresh, and agry, enemies. Or simply: "War on terrorism with bombs is like war on drugs with bombs."

(OT sorry: Didn't Bush s:r declare a "war on drugs")

Dishonest, because I think that the Issies are not that stupid. They know that what they do is to some extent counter-productive. I can only conclude that they have (also) other objectives beside what they say. I could speculate on those, but I now I will stop at saying that I find it fishy.

And my previous questions to you Craig. Yes most probably a majority [of Americans] are more in favour of Israel than the Arab world, in general. Do you think that means they support all that they do now? (Yesterday a poll on cnn.com showed a slight, 55/45, majority against the latest Israeli actions, but I guess many international readers).

And returning to Highlander's start of this thread, Gaza, which frankly makes my heart bleed. What good, in your opinion, is achieved by disrupting fresh-water supplies? Or on previous ocasions, destroyng olive-plantations? Do you find it credible that the Israeli offensive had as its only objective to recapture their soldier? Personally I am convinced that the Israeli government were just waiting for a pretext to cause more mayhem. They want to weaken the existence for all Palestinians, and weaken it, no matter if Hamas is in charge or not.

programmer craig said...

LibyanWarrior, we all saw you blessing Hezbollah on this blog. Don't pretend now that you are not a Hezbollah supporter. And when you support people who murder Americans (and murdered friends of mine, on personal level) that *is* a threat against this country. I interpret it as such, in any case. Why don't you follow my advice and go down to Camp Lejeune praising Hezbollah to the Marines at the gate, and we can easliy get this issue resolved :)

You certianly don't have to accept my interpretation of what you said.

programmer craig said...

Hi Alan,

So I say that talk like "They deserve it, they made thier own mess" is grossly over-simplified.

I don't recall saying that, so I'll pass on that without comment. Maybe you intended it for somebody else?

Unjust because the amount of civilian deaths and distroyed infrastructure is disproportionate

There is no such concept as "justice" in a war. Wars are just or unjust due to the reasons they are begun. Not because of the way they are fought.

Neither is there any concept of proportionality.

The object is to destroy the enemy. Not to exact measured retribution.

Counter-productive becuase I believe that terrorism does not breed off genes (or books as some claim), it breeds off anger. Take away the anger

Well, I don't agree with you. I think it comes from indoctrinated programs of hatred. In other words, it comes from childhood.

(i.e. let the Pallies be), and you have taken away most of the the ground that breeds terror.

That doesn't seem to be a factual statement. Russians never did anything to Palestinians. Yet, Chechnyans have not spared Russia terrorist attacks. And neither did Afghans during the 80s.

If you kill 20 "terrorists a.k.a freedom fighters" and 200 civilians, you have most probably created more fresh, and agry, enemies. Or simply: "War on terrorism with bombs is like war on drugs with bombs."

Yes. Like killing Nazis just created more Nazis in World War II, right? :D

Sorry, I can't help being snarky. That's such a bizarre mindset. Let the criminals do what they want, because if you crack down on crime, you'll just create more crime. Right?

Terrorism will cease when parents stop raising their children to be terrorists. That's my belief. As for the current supply, I'm hoping muslim societies will eventually alienate them and shun them to the point where they become irrelevant. If that doesn't work, they will all have to be killed.

However, I don't think there is an endless supply of would-be Jihadis.

(OT sorry: Didn't Bush s:r declare a "war on drugs")

Nope. That was Ronald Reagan :)

Dishonest, because...

That's not for you (or me) to say. You are free to believe what you wish, but Israel has the right under international law to defend itself from attack.

And my previous questions to you Craig. Yes most probably a majority [of Americans] are more in favour of Israel than the Arab world, in general. Do you think that means they support all that they do now?

Simple answer? Yes.

It's a popular myth created outside of teh United States that the US does not stand in support of Israel. We do. We aren't like the British. We support our allies without backhanding them across the face at the same time. And we are even less like the French, who don't even know what the word "ally" means, apparrently.

Do you find it credible that the Israeli offensive had as its only objective to recapture their soldier?

Yes. To get their missing soldier back, and to encourage the Palestinians not to offer up a repeat performance. What else do you think their purpose would be?

Personally I am convinced that the Israeli government were just waiting for a pretext to cause more mayhem.

I can see that. Do all Europeans hate Israel so much? Why? If you don't mind me asking?

You say both sides have done wrong. Yet I see you only making passing reference to wrongs done to Israelis. And then you go into Israel's evil ways in great detail.

I'm really at a loss as to what your motives are.

To be honest, I don't see enough balance in your comments to even want to discuss it with you. I'd rather talk about Lebanon, as that involves my country, and I'll be happy to get partisan about that one :)

I don't want to be a defender of Israel. I'm not Israeli and I'm not jewish. I'm not going to play the pro-Israel partisan. If you want to discuss it obejctively, you'll have to at least pretend to be objective :)

I guess it shouldn't be a surprise that you guys are so anti-Israel. You don't treat America nay better. We took the same beating Israel did from the "international community" and we still do. Every single day. Israel doesn't care much about you guys any more. And, neither do Americans. But we can still have discussions, right? Just try to maintain some degree of balance. Especially if you want me to play the role of "defender" of a country that is not my own.

Maybe we can get one of the Israeli commenters from Sandmonkey's blog over here to talk about Gaza and the West Bank.

Adam said...

Craig wrote:
Do all Europeans hate Israel so much? Why? If you don't mind me asking?

Personally I do not. (Read what I write about Rabin further down.)I do hate their present policies. That is an important distinction that I make.

Between the Oslo agreement and the second intifada there was a good peace-proces. That was ended by Sharon's temple-mountain stunt. In my opinion that was a deliberate provocation. Stone-thowers were shot dead. And things have gone downhill since then.

You say that a majority of Americans support Israel in all that they do. So I assume that you do too. You went to great pains to replying to my post, thanks :), but you missed these qustions, so I ask for a third time: What good is achieved by disrupting fresh-water supplies and by destroying olive-plantations? I also wonder what good is achieved by settlers living on Palestinian land?

True what you say,I do focus on the wrongs done by Israel, and much less on Hamas. You wonder why. Because I am trying to figure out how you feel about them.

And about terrorism, indocrination is perhaps to some degree true, but that is the firewood. The match that lights the fire is anger over the state-of the affairs.

How can I support that?. During a two-year-period while Yitzak Rabin was Prime Minister in Israel, there was not single terrorist act. Not one, hold that thought. He was great leader of Israel, and during his moderate non-confrontational leadership there was hope on both sides. How did Rabin die? By the hands of an Israeli extremist. So sad.

(OT: Reagan's war on drugs. Was that a successful war :P)

programmer craig said...

Hi Again, Adam :)

Personally I do not. (Read what I write about Rabin further down.)I do hate their present policies. That is an important distinction that I make.

I'm not sure what you mean by that? You liked the Oslo accords? Was there any other period in the last 60 years in which you didn't hate Israel's policies?

I have to say, I don't think that's a very good testament to your objectivity. That's the same stance militant Palestinians take.

Between the Oslo agreement and the second intifada there was a good peace-proces.

Really? The resulting peace of the "peace process" was what, exactly?

That was ended by Sharon's temple-mountain stunt. In my opinion that was a deliberate provocation.

Israeli troops, Palestinians clash after Sharon visits Jerusalem sacred site

I don't see it that way. Whether what Sharon said was true, or what Ashrawi said is true, how does such a trivial thing justify the kind of violence that followed?

Again, Israel is the victim, and is portrayed as the victimizer.

Stone-thowers were shot dead.

That doesn't seem to be a factual statement, from what I've been able to ascertain:

More than 30 people, most Israeli soldiers, were hurt in the Jerusalem clashes, which began after Sharon left what Jews call the Temple Mount and Muslims call al-Haram as-Sharif, the Noble Sanctuary.

Do you have some info that's better than that CNN article?

And things have gone downhill since then.

And whose fault was that?

That was 3 months before Arafat walked out on the deal Clinton brokered between Barak and Arafat. Which would have given Palestinians MUCH more than they have any hope of getting now.

You say that a majority of Americans support Israel in all that they do. So I assume that you do too.

That was my short answer, yes. That's been true all of my life, too. It's not something new.

Most Americans try to be fair, though. I used to try to be fair as well. Or at least, I tried to be detached. However, I've been abused (personally) by Palestinians and their supporters on blogs too many times. It's very difficult for me to be objective on this issue anymore. It seems quite clear to me where the hate is coming from. Also, the Palestinian/Israeli conflict has been used as a justification for attacks on my country, and my countrymen. By Osama bin Ladin, and others. If Palestinians and their "allies" insist on making the US a combatant in their war, then so be it. Nothing I can do about that.

What good is achieved by disrupting fresh-water supplies and by destroying olive-plantations?

I didn't answer because I have no idea what you are referring to. Can you provide some reputable links?

I also wonder what good is achieved by settlers living on Palestinian land?

Well, the settlers were forcibly evacuated from Gaza some time ago. Do you have information to the contrary?

However, I'll answer your question anyway. The purpose of the settlers was (best guess on my part) to tamp down on palestinian insurgency.

True what you say,I do focus on the wrongs done by Israel, and much less on Hamas. You wonder why. Because I am trying to figure out how you feel about them.

Why does it matter how I feel about them? I'm not Jewish and I'm not Israeli, as I said. I've never even been to Israel.

I want to hear how you feel about wrongs done by Palestinians. And not just HAMAS. The first time I ever even heard the word "Palestinian" was when I was watching the munich Olympics when I was 8 years old. Every time I heard the word throughout the 1970s, it was because of a plane hijacking, a massacre, or a bombing.

My perceptions have never changed. The perceptions of most Americans have never changed. Yours have. And most Europeans have. How, and why? That's what I want to know. What happened in Europe, that is different than what happened in the United States?

And about terrorism, indocrination is perhaps to some degree true, but that is the firewood. The match that lights the fire is anger over the state-of the affairs.

No. I don't agree. As I said before, I don't think it's anger. It's hate. Anger is a fleeting emotion. If the murderous hatred wasn't there, the anger wouldn't amount to any more than the anger I have towards Hezbollah. I would like to see Hezbollah destroyed. But I wouldn't extend that anger to random Lebanese (or further extend it to random arabs, or even worse, random muslims) and then set myself a mission to personally exterminate them.

Anger doesn't explain it. Brainwashing explains it.

(OT: Reagan's war on drugs. Was that a successful war :P)

Yes :)

Recreational drug use is a lot less common now than it was in the 1980s. Though drug addiction rates are not much improved.

Still not sure why you're throwing taht one out there, though. Just curiousity?

Adam said...

Aha Craig !

A child of -64, I knew there was something good in u! :)
Will get back l8r.

Anonymous said...

LW...Thanks for clearing up the "redneck" non-issue...once again a "foreigner" had to teach an american his own heritage/history...

Back to PC. Thanks to Adam I now know why you hate HA...On a personal level, I would not blame you...I mean probably one of your boyfriends got shafted in the blast and booked an express ticket to hell...What can I say?? Personal loss does cloud someone's judgement....but do not despair, they are only collateral damage on the way to winning the war on terror ;)...

But seriously, you really need to stop bitching and whining about HA, and look closer to home.... At the end of the day, HA is the natural response to years of f***** policies adopted locally by the goons ( That is middleast leader for your limited mind) who were supported by the successive US governments, and the external policies by the super powers.

Had the US been genuinely interseted in spreading democracy/freedom/economic prosperity in the region, then non of this shit would have had happened... but at every turn where the could have made a difference, it made the wrong choices. It is Interesting that you mention the iranian hostage crisis and then go on to bicth about law/justice.... Yet you fail miserably to mention that 25 years before that event, the Irarinans had a democratically elected that the US actively undermined and got rid of through black ops, and then went to support one of the worst dictators who managed to kill tens of thousands of Iranians... You really think that people will just forget your deeds and move on?? and what happened in the end....Iran is being governed by Mad Mullah's, and whose fault was it?? This is one of example of many that I can mention....

End of the day, if you want to play dirty, then expect your foes to reciprocate....so don't bitch and whine when they do....

HL look after yourself & stay safe ....I had enough with this buffoooooon...will be back in few weeks time

God Bless HA/Hamas

Redneck

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

PC:) Jews are slaughtering Americans as we speak. Join The national Vangaurd if u oppose the Slughter of Americans sooo Much, and if u dont shut your Fucking mouth!!!!!!!!!

Shalom and Good bye.

programmer craig said...

Adam, do you see these two psychopaths who are supporters of Palestine? How am I supposed to be "neutral" when every time I see the Palestinian perspective presented on the internet, it's coming form people who want to see dead Americans? How does it make you feel, to have them as your ideological allies? It doesn't make me feel very good, to see Europeans supporting people who would like to see me dead, and my country destroyed.

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

Who the Hell said I want to SEE DEAD AMERICANS U FUCKING RETARD!!!!!!!! Craig dude u need some help, u twist shit around big time, r u Jewish. I think u very well may b. get a life loser.

programmer craig said...

LW,

How many times have you said that you support America's enemies, and want America (and Europe) to be defeated? Newsfalsh! We are at war! When you say that you want Americans to lose the war, you are saying you want us DEAD. You really aren't very bright, are you?

These aren't difficult concepts. You support our enemies during a war, you are supporting our deaths.

Nice "r u jewish" comment. You've made two completely unrelated racist attacks on me now. First you call me a redneck, then you call me jewish? What am I, a jewish redneck? And since I've said twice in this thread that I am not jewish, you also just called me a liar.

Thank you for speaking up, by the way, and for being honest. I think AlanK can look at you very easily and see what drives terrorism. You are a nearly ideal example.

Adam said...

Ho! Ho! Highlander has 34796 page-views, and counting! At least that is one thing that all bloggers here; Black, White, Red, Green and Yellow, must cheer for! :D

And Craig, ah well man, you ask me so many questions so I have a bit of trouble keeping up with them. Some of them will need a bit of further research, and will be answered later on, and some might trigger rebounds, others might be lost among the others, so please bear with me, and remind me if I miss an important one.

This discussion here has swayed back and forth. Highlander's thread started in Gaza and - from now on - I will try to stay on that subject :)

You wonder by what I mean with my remarks about the period 93-99-ish. And then you say that my views match those of militant Pallies. And I wonder what you mean by that. So now we begin with a total bewilderment at each others statements.

Exactly what part of my statement do you mean? The Oslo accord certainly opened up for a bit of optimism, I think. I assume you do not find the Oslo agreement wrong. (Or if it was wrong, then it must have been wrong for the Issies to sign it, and for Clinton to endorse it.) I feel that for a few years the Israeli leadership was on the right track. What extremists share that view? Since the 80’s (dunno enough ‘bout before) I think that Israeli policies mostly have been confrontational, with the exception of a few years. True I used the word hate, perhaps a trifle strong. I acknowledge the good stuff and denounce the bad. Am I an extremist?

Really? The resulting peace of the "peace process" was what, exactly?

Was what I said: two years of peace. Number of terrorist acts: nil. A brief glimmer of hope.

I want to hear how you feel about wrongs done by Palestinians.

Palestinian acts towards civilians: wrong and totally wrong. Palestinian acts within their own borders towards the IDF: self defence. But I see a lot more dead Palestinians than Israelis. You see the Palestinians as aggressors. I see the occupation as an aggression. But even if we regard the Palestinians as “aggressors”: the Israeli “response” uses excessive force, far beyond what is justifiable and productive in self-defence. (Productive? Yes, remember the peaceful two years in the mid/late 90’s)

I might be a softie, but if I see a big kid punching the wits out of a small kid in the street I feel sorry for the small kid, even if the small kid started it. If the big kid is my kid and he comes home with a bruise and the small kid goes to hospital, I tell my kid to hold his fire next time. That is what I feel. I hope this is an answer to your question.

Or as our hostess, Highlander writes: “So sad....may God rest the dead, the dying and those about to die in Peace. It does not matter whether they are Israelis or Arabs, death is the same to all.”

My question on the disruption of fresh water supplies in Gaza: The exact story in the news was destroyed power-stations that were crucial to water supplies. Does that ring a bell or shall I look it up?

Subjects to be dealt with later:
The so called "Palestininan walk-out", of that story there is a version of an Israeli walk-out. I will try to find a trusted source on that. Ideas anyone?

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

Lol. u stupid fuck u r the one who is not 2 bright cocksucker.lol. I never called u a "redneck". I find it intresting that u consider being called a jew a "racist attack". U r not worth my time.lol. My neck is no less then your buddy. My skin is no less pale then yours, so get over yourself, and stop being paranoid. i am labeled white just as u, so how could I be racist against my own race? I geuss u can change the rules when they suit u, u can deny me minority rights and subjagate me to affirmative action, and then at the same time accuse me of being Anti-White. This is bullshit. Screw u craig. Where is Highlander. I hope she comes here quick so she can see what a retard u have become, have u been sniffing paint thinner by any chance Craig, u know dude Their was this guy last semseter who was doing that shit and he is still in a coma, chill out with that stuff bro, it kills braincells.

layal said...

أتمني ان نتبنى جميعا كمدونين كلمه واحده بتاريخ واحد نحدد فيه رأينا للعالم اجمع
اتمني ان ندون مدونه واحد بتاريخ 27/07/2006
كلنا كمدونين نكرر عباره واحده
كلنا مع لبنان وفلسطين ضد اسرائيل والمحتلين
ولننشر كلماتنا القليله في جميع المنتديات والمواقع ليكون هذا اليوم يوم احتجاج
بالعربي بالانجليزي المهم نسمع صوتنا للعالم
وان لم نستطيع حمل السلاح فالنحمل الكلمه
وبأي لغة نستطيع نشرها
بالإنجليزية
We are with Lebanon and Palestine against Israel and occupiers
والفرنسية
Nous sommes avec tous le Liban et la Palestine contre l’Israel et les occupants
والألمانية
Wir sind zusammen mit dem Libanon und Palästina gegen Israel und Besatzer
والإسبانية
Somos todos con Líbano y Palestina contra Israel e inquilinos
والصينية
我们都是同黎巴嫩和巴勒斯坦对以色列占领者
واليابانية
私達はイスラエル共和国および占有者に対してレバノンおよ
びパレスチナとのすべてである
تحياتي للجميع

Anonymous said...

Israel’s historical use of violence

By Jonathan Cook

07/20/06

The general surprise that Lebanese civilians are taking the brunt of Israel’s onslaught -- and the unwillingness in some quarters of the media to report the fact -- reflects a poor understanding of Israel’s historical use of violence. Since its birth six decades ago, Israel has always been officially “going after the terrorists”, but its actions have invariably harmed civilians in an indiscriminate manner.

The roll call of dishonour is long indeed, but its highlights include: the massacre of some 200 civilians in Tantura, as well as large-scale massacres in at least a dozen other Palestinian villages, during the 1948 war that established Israel; Ariel Sharon’s attack on the village of Qibya in 1953 that killed 70 innocent Palestinians; the Kfar Qassem massacre inside Israel when 49 farm workers were gunned down at an improvised army checkpoint; a massacre in the same year in the refugee camp of Khan Yunis, in Gaza, in which more than 250 civilians were killed; attacks on dozens of Palestinian, Egytian and Syrian villages during the 1967 war; the killing of six unarmed Arab citizens of Israel in 1976; the massacre of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in the Lebanese refugee camps of Sabra and Shatilla in 1982; the unremitting use of lethal force by the army against unarmed Palestinians, often women and children, during the first intifada of 1987-93; the aerial bombardment of Qana in south Lebanon in 1996 that killed more than 100 civilians; and the endless “collateral damage” of Palestinian civilians during the second intifada, including a half-ton bomb that killed a husband and wide and their seven children a week ago.

The true reasons for these deaths are concealed from credulous observers by Israel’s use of Orwellian language. When it says it is destroying the “infrastructure of terror”, Israel means it is crushing all Arab resistance to its territorial ambitions in the region. The “infrastructure” includes most Arab men, women and children because they continue to support -- against Israel’s wishes -- their peoples’ rights to self-determination without interference from the Israeli army.
In this sense, and others, there is very little difference between what Israel is doing in Gaza to overturn the democratic wishes of the Palestinian electorate and what it is doing in Lebanon to smash any hopes of a democratic future for its northern neighbour. In Gaza, it wants Hamas destroyed because Hamas is prepared to counter Israel’s unilateral policies with its own unilateral agenda; and in Lebanon, Israel wants Hizbullah obliterated because it is the only force capable, possibly, of preventing a repeat of Israel’s long invasion and occupation of the 1980s and 1990s.

By rounding up the Palestinian cabinet, Israel is not destroying terror, it is clipping the political wings of Hamas, those in its leadership who are quickly learning the arts of government and searching for a space in which they can negotiate with Israel. Through its rejectionist behaviour, Israel is only confirming the doubts of those in the Hamas military wing who argue Israel always acts in bad faith.

Similarly in Lebanon, Israel is holding Hizbullah less to account with its attacks than the Lebanese people and their government, despite the latter’s transparently shaky grip on the country. Israel’s military strikes polarise opinion in Lebanon, weaken Fouad Siniora and his ministers, and threaten to push Lebanon over the brink into another civil war.

Israel is keen to talk about “changing the balance of power” in Gaza and Lebanon, implying that it is trying to stregthen the “democrats” against the “terrorists”. But this impression is entirely false. Israeli actions are destroying what little balance of power exists in Gaza and Lebanon so that the two areas become ungovernable.

In Gaza, Israel has been engineering a debilitating struggle for power between Fatah and Hamas, while in Lebanon whatever hollow shell of national unity has existed till now is in danger of cracking under the strain of the Israeli onslaught.

Superficially at least, this seems self-destructive behaviour on Israel’s part, given that it has also been striving to detect the fingerprints of outside actors in Gaza and Lebanon.

In the case of Gaza, Israel points to Syria as a safe haven for the exiled Hamas leader Khaled Meshal, to Hizbullah and Iran as sponsors of Hamas “terror” and even to a new al-Qaeda presence. In the case of Lebanon, Israel additionally identifies the strong ties between Hizbullah and Damascus and Tehran.

So why would Israel want Lebanon and Gaza to be ravaged by factional fighting of the kind that might make them more vulnerable to this kind of unwelcome interference from outside?

A history lesson or two helps clarify Israel’s reasoning

In the occupied Palestinian territories, Hamas was born during the upheavals of the first intifada and encouraged by Israel as a counterweight to the unifying secular Palestinian nationalism of Yasser Arafat.

In Lebanon, the Shiite militia Hizbullah was the inevitable byproduct of Israel’s occupation of the south and its establishment of a mostly Christian proxy militia, the South Lebanon Army, against the Muslim majority.

In both cases it is clear Israel hoped that, by Islamising its opponents in these regional conflicts, it would delegitimise them in the eyes of Western allies and that it could cultivate sectarianism as a way to further weaken the social cohesiveness of its neighbours.

Recently Israel has encouraged the slide deeper into Islamic extremism through its policies of unilateralism and its refusal to negotiate.

The same set of policies is being continued now in the Palestinian territories and Lebanon: the shattering of these two societies will only deepen the trend toward radical Islam. Islamic movements not only offer the best hope of local resistance to Israel for these weakened societies but they also offer a parallel social infrastructure of health care and welfare services as state institutions collapse.

There is immediate advantage for Israel in this outcome. With secular society crushed and Islamic resistance movements filling the void, Israel will be able to reinforce the impression of many in the West that Israel is on the front line of global “war of terror” being waged by a single implacable enemy, Islam. Israel’s ability to persuade the world that this war is being waged against the whole “civilised” Judeo-Christian West will be made that bit easier.

As a result, Israel may be able to drag its paymaster, the United States, deeper into the mire of the Middle East as a junior partner rather than as an honest broker, giving Israel cover while it carves up yet more Palestinian land for annexation, puts further pressure on the Palestinains to leave their homeland, and destablises its regional enemies so that they are powerless to offer protest or resistance.

For some time President Bush has found himself in no position to criticise Israeli actions when Tel Aviv claims to be doing no more to the Palestinians than the US is doing to the Iraqis. If the US allows itself to be handcuffed to Israel’s even more extreme version of the “war on terror”, the consequences will be dire not just for the Palestinians or the region, but for all of us.

Jonathan Cook is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. His book, “Blood and Religion: The Unmasking of the Jewish and Democratic State” is published by Pluto Press. His website is www.jkcook.net

programmer craig said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
programmer craig said...

Hi AlanK,

You wonder by what I mean with my remarks about the period 93-99-ish. And then you say that my views match those of militant Pallies. And I wonder what you mean by that.

I mean exactly what I said. The only thing I've ever heard militant Palestinians say that was good about Israel, is that time period when Israel was making REAL concessions, in exchange for false promises.

That doesn't make you an extremist. It just makes you one sided in your views, in my opinion. The Oslo accords were not a victory for the peace process. They led the ME to where it is right now. Which is not peace.

Was what I said: two years of peace. Number of terrorist acts: nil. A brief glimmer of hope.

2 years, out of 60?

And Arafat abandoned Oslo as soon as he got what he milked the accords for all he could get. When it came time to close the deal, he walked out of Clintons office and declared war on Israel.

Palestinian acts towards civilians: wrong and totally wrong.

That's a very brief statement, to cover hundreds of acts of outright TERRORISM don't you think?

Don't you think that deserves a little more examination?

You asked me why teh US supports Israel. The answer is we see Israel being subjected to the *exact* same types of terrorist attack that Americans have been subjected to since the 1970s.

But I see a lot more dead Palestinians than Israelis.

Ah.... and that's the measure of who is right, and who is wrong?

The Japanese suffered far more deaths in combat opeartions than teh Americans did. I guess we were the bad guys in WW II.

Likewise, the British were the bad guys in World War II, as their casualties were very light compared to German casualties.

How many people from your country diewd in World War II? Perhaps you were the bad guys too. I'm not sure where you live, but unless you are German or Russian, you are almost certainly on the "bad guy" team, using your "losses sufferred" standard.

You see the Palestinians as aggressors. I see the occupation as an aggression.

You have to look at the root cause of a military occupation to determine who the aggressor was.

Under what circumstances did Israel occupy those lands?

Germany was occupied after WWII as was Japan. I don't think any sane person would claim that they were teh victims of aggression.

But even if we regard the Palestinians as “aggressors”: the Israeli “response” uses excessive force, far beyond what is justifiable and productive in self-defence.

We've already discussed this. Those concepts do not exist in war.

I might be a softie, but if I see a big kid punching the wits out of a small kid in the street I feel sorry for the small kid, even if the small kid started it.

Who is the "big kid" then Adam? The 5 million Israelis stuck in the middle of 150 million Arabs?

That's nuts. You must be pulling for the Israelis then, right?

And don't even tell me the Israelis were better armed. The Arabs were armed by the soviets, and soveit weaponry was superior to American made stuff until the 1980s. Most especially the tanks. The T-72 was the best tank of it's time, bar none.

And don't even get me started on teh US funding Israel either, not with all the oil money the arabs have.

I unfortunately read Libyan Warriors abusive comments before responding here, so my tempre is a bit up. Nothing to do with you. Perhaps we can continue (if you wish to) in one of the new posts that I see Highlander has posted :)

programmer craig said...

Anonymous, please link the propaganda articles from now on, instead of copy-pasting them as comments?

If you have nothing to say (in your own words) don't say anything, eh?

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

unfortunately read Libyan Warriors abusive comments


I meant everyone of my abusive comments, and unlike u craig, I WILL NOT CENSOR MYSELF!!!!!!!! U have accused me of treason, u have called me a Terrorist, u have attacked me in everyway possible, u have threatened to kill me directly, U r a sick and twisted man, and u should b locked up, we saw what happened to DimeBag, when crazy Military Dudes r left loose they begin to kill Americans, u need to go to a VA clinic dude, u seem to be sufffering from some sort of trauma, if u want i can get u some info, anyway , dude take crae and chill the hell out.

programmer craig said...

LW: if the show fits, wear it.

At least I didn't attack your religion and ethnicity, did I? You're a bigot, flat out. And it's your extreme bigotry that makes me take you seriously when you praise terrorist orgs like Hezbollah and Al Qaeda.

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

When Did I praise praise terrorist orgs like Hezbollah and Al Qaeda?



Cut and Paste any comment I have ever made, read evcery artical, I have ever written, read all My Blogs, its VERY well known that I HAVE NEVER praised Al-quida, and that I despise them. As far as HA goes, I have never praised them, not once, they have never really been on my radar, I am not a Shite, and I am not from lebonan, I make tons of Anti-Shite comments, and its very well known that i hate Iran with a firey passion, and that I hate shites with a firey passion and that i do not consider them muslims and that I would love nothing more then to see iran totally destroyed, becuz they are Non-Arabs( Non-Arab speaking peoples in the sense the are not one of the NA nations where the offical language is arabic,and they dont have arab cultures and norm, things which I have and the Majority of berbers have as well, and they are Shites and Posse a threat to a integral ally on the war on terrorism Saudi Arabia). So Please retard get your fucking facts straight.

Maya M said...

Is anybody still following this thread? I wish to attract your attention to the strange silence of the only Palestinian blogger I know, Nadz (nadz101.blogspot.com).
She is a young Palestinian-American and for the last several months since I know her blog, she seems to be becoming less Palestinian and more American, an evolution quite opposite to that of LibyanWarrior.
I of course expected her to comment on the Gaza operation, but she didn't, although she comments on the later operation in Lebanon (blaming Hezbollah).
I find this silence at least as meaningful as any comment could be. My guess: Nadz blames Hamas for kidnapping the soldier, and most Palestinian adults for electing Hamas and now for approving the kidnapping in opinion polls. But she cannot write, as I would, "Israel, smash the bastards". Not even, as Big Pharaoh did, "Palestinians, you are morons". Because they are her people, despite all.

Highlander said...

I still follow this thread Maya...