Friday, July 21, 2006

Israel

I have kept away from the blogs lately because of all the terrible things people are saying, and although I've learned never to be surprised at anything in this life, some people's reactions on various blogs did make me draw my breath in and shake my head in despair and disappointment. I don't know these people; it's just that you keep asking yourself are they for real ?

Yet although I boycotted the blogs , the news of war and bitterness follow me every where: colleague conversations, TV pundits, and even lately by sms where I received a text message yesterday sent by this organisation regarding a rally which will be held today after Friday prayers in Martyrs' Square in Tripoli in solidarity with the Palestinian and Lebanese peoples.
I think it is a great idea as it would give the people a way to vent their pent up feelings, as long as they don't veer off track !

With regards to Israel, I'm going to voice my opinion once again loudly :

I do not think that the land on which Israel is now established is its right let alone 'divine' right. I think that it was obtained by force and by crookery and that the Arab/Palestinians have been 'scre***d' big time. So do not attempt to reason with me or change my mind about this.
BUT I also totally agree that Arabs who had not given up in their endeavour to regain this land have been stupid, and at times downright wrong (even though it was a desperate bid) and that made them loose both militarily and on the moral high ground front and so deserve what befall them.

Hence, I concede ( as I did 2 years ago on this blog ) that Israel is here to stay and that it is a force to be reckoned with and that is why it has 'earned' the right to be in the Middle East.
So I have been in agreement of a peace deal with Israel for a long time, there is no need to get killed for no purpose since Liberation of occupied Palestine is not going to happen without a proper plan. There will only be Arab genocide. All that we are seeing are half baked attempts . Liberation needs dedication and work, and unity and a strong economy. The Palestinians are none of that and neither are the neighbours ( who never get the chance to reach that stage anyway, as always something happens to them ! ).

So yes let's each hug an Israeli, since the Jews are our cousins anyway and lets spare lives and live in Peace. The important thing is to have a prosperous healthy free and educated society, of which can feel proud. And if there is any Justice to be done let God be the judge of that.


Watch this space for the next installment : The Lebanon and much more , also your comments will probably be replied to in a big post as well :)

11 comments:

AlanK said...

highlander

glad your back, take as much time as you need will be looking forward to your post

as for the situation, it just seems to be going from bad to worse, sadly.

also thanks for putting back the comments as well

Libyan Warrior( The King Of Al-Andalaus) said...

God bless ya Highlander!!!!!!!!!!!


WHITE JEWS GO BACK TO RUSSIA!!!!!!!

Non-Blogging said...

Ah yeah. After a couple of days of literal non-blogging I came back only to see that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is once again being fought in the blogosphere...

Honestly, maybe I'm just a very boring person but I don't get any special kicks from it unlike from the cartoon clash ;-).

Maya, although I disagree very much with you on your scenario of a kind of Arab invasion of Europe and the fall of Western civilization, I think you made a very valid point in the earlier thread here. You're one of the few people who seem to see the conflict in the global context - here I'm referring to your examples from the Bulgarian history. I don't understand those people who try to see what for them is the illegal occupation of Palestine as the biggest injustice in the history of the world. (Just for the sake of clarity, neither do I understand those fanatics for whom the establishment of the State of Israel was the greatest triumph of the mankind.)

Deportations, deliberate settlements of people on foreign soil to change the ethnic map and such occur everywhere. Just think about the amount of new independent countries in the world especially in the 20th century. If the land area of the globe remains the same, this means that all the area occupied by a new independent state is gained from someone else, and looking only at the map of Europe we can see a lot of examples of unfair changes of borders where the ethnic distribution of the population was not cared about. Nasty but unavoidable because very few European countries are monoethnic (and multiethnicity is great anyway).

What counts, however, is the reaction. Come over it and try to live in peace instead of bitterness if you can't change it anyway.

Highlander, I think your point about Israel as a fact, like it or not, is very sane. (OK, most Kremlologists never predicted the end of the Soviet Union but thought that evil empire would last forever - thank God they were wrong.) Instead of turning this debate, then, once again to which side of the conflict is the good guy and which the bad guy, what I would be very interested in hearing from you is a comment on the mental, not political background of the Arab world's non-recognition of Israel, save a couple of examples to the contrary. Peace and the restoration of diplomatic relations would certainly benefit both sides. So, why not? What's this all about? Stubbornness? Prestige? Honour? Morality? Popular opinion (I doubt that one, as dictatorships and pseudodemocracies leaders of Arab countries don't really have to care about it if we forget Sadat's fate)?

Personally, I admire stubbornness (it sometimes changes the world!)but not honour just for the sake of it instead of common sense ;-).

This part of the conflict is a rare exception where one side is clearly to blame. Israel would love to have normal working relations with Arab countries.

Non-Blogging said...

So nice. Now the blog is showing three flags, mine, Libyan and US. Highlander, are you there? And who's the American, Craig, LW, Twosret, the new redneck troll ;-)?

And my flag is above the two others HAHAHAHAHA.

programmer craig said...

AlanK,

as for the situation, it just seems to be going from bad to worse, sadly

That's a matter of perspective, isn't it?

The current situation in Lebanon (and Gaza) is a disaster for Israel. Unless they can somehow turn it around, which I do not think they can do.

Which means it is also a disaster for the US.

It's also (obviously) a disaster for the people of Lebanon. Not just because of the physical destruction of the country, but because Lebanon is in the process of becoming either a failed (lawless) state, or an occupide state. Occupied by either Syria or Israel. My guess is Syria, as I don't think Israel has any desire to occupy Lebaonon, whereas Syria obviously does.

Those are the major losers.

Major winners: Syria and Iran.

For obvious reasons.

programmer craig said...

BTW, Adam (If you are reading this one) can you please explain to me why you brought US policy re: illegal drugs, US crime rates, and US Suprem Court rulings into a discussion about Israel/Gaza/Lebanon?

I ask because I want to know who I'm dealing with. If you have some sort of animosity towards the US (which is how it looks to me) then I really don't want to try and engage in a discussion with you on Israel or any other issue, really. I think it would be futile. Hope you undertsand. On the other hand, maybe there is a good reason why you think US domestic affairs are relevant to what's going on in the middle east.

Adam said...

Craig amigo, you gotta losen up:)

Do I have an animosity towards the US?

What???
I aint got a thing against the US people. I love New York City and dig SF too. LA & Vegas do not turn me on. But frankly: when I traveled by car around the US in -95 it was the best travel of my life. It was then, and has been ever since. (Trust me, I do travel a lot, and to many different places.) And the best thing about my US trip was the diversity. That is one great country you have there. But...

It seems a bit hard for you grasp shades of gray. My perceptions of the world are far from just black and white. I might adore some things about your country, and to varying degrees like and dislike others. OK?

And your questions:
Why did I mention murder numbers?
(As I already said, for perspective.) I mentioned the murder numbers (10000 dead every year) to put a bit of perspective on the Hizbollah victims u mention (150-200 US victims ever). I never made a statement, I asked you how you felt about the proportions.

Why did I mention Reagan's "war on drugs" ?
I mentioned the term "war on drugs", not without irony, because I feel that that term was to some extent just rhethoric. Just as I feel that the term "war on terror" is to some extent rhethoric. Why? It is not just a "war" that can be won won with superior fire-power. Why? Simply because of the nature of the enemy. The enemy might be the guy with the iPod next to you on the bus, wearing Nikes and drinking Coke. It is always hard to defeat a highly complex enemy, and sure, *ALL* terror *MUST* be fought. But the term "war on terror", IMHO, is an over-simplification.

And BTW: I disagree with your opinion that the war on drugs has been successful. You say yourself: "Recreational drug use is a lot less common now than it was in the 1980s. Though drug addiction rates are not much improved." Drugs for fun decreased mostly because they went out of fashion - as did excessive casual sex - and not as a result of politics. Drug adiction keeps causing huge social problems.

Why did I mention the Supreme Court?
I never did. Do not misquote me, thanks! And do not call me Alan :)
http://lonehighlander.blogspot.com/2006/07/ranting-about-gaza-situation-updated.html#c115337345774628594

I did mention Guantanamo. U then questioned it, with your reference to the SC. & u really should remember that I withdrew my question and admitted it was irrelevant.

I hope you feel that I have answered your questions.

programmer craig said...

Hi Adam,

Craig amigo, you gotta losen up:)

Not feeling to light hearted these days, too many people glorifying people who murdered my friends on the blogosphere. And acting like it's none of my business, which adds insult to injury.

That is one great country you have there. But...

Thanks! Why is there always a "but" though? :P

It seems a bit hard for you grasp shades of gray.

You bet it is. Shades of gray get people killed. It's impossible to make decisions when you cannot make distinctions.

Look at the UN for proof of that.

My perceptions of the world are far from just black and white.

That's fine. Just keep your perceptions out of my life, and we'll be fine :)

I might adore some things about your country, and to varying degrees like and dislike others. OK?

No, not really. I don't think it's OK for you to attack my country. Why is my country any of your business? Of course, you are entitled to your opinions. But don't expect me to be OK with them.

(As I already said, for perspective.) I mentioned the murder numbers (10000 dead every year) to put a bit of perspective on the Hizbollah victims u mention (150-200 US victims ever).

Well, you seem to be a bit short on facts with your claims of 150-200 Americans killed by Hezbollah.

And perhaps, since you think this is a valid analogy (which I do not) I should use the same number to provide some perspective about how trivial the 300 dead in Lebanon the last 10 days is?

I don't accept that you just threw that number out there for purposes of illustration. It's not very logical. The analogy makes no sense.

I mentioned the term "war on drugs", not without irony, because I feel that that term was to some extent just rhethoric.

Just rhetoric? Several Latin American governments fell, over that rhetoric! There is still a civil war in Columbia with the US backing the Columbian government with US military assets, as part of the war on drugs.

It's quite a lot more than mere rhetoric.

Just as I feel that the term "war on terror" is to some extent rhethoric.

Well, that's fine, but again... how is this any of your business? The US *has* formally declared war. That's not rhetoric, that's action. Did we ask you for your opinion about whether or not we could declare war?

Why did I mention the Supreme Court? I never did. Do not misquote me, thanks!

But, you did. You mentioned the Administartions change of policy in regards to Guantanamo Bay. Which resulted from a Supreme Court ruling.

I'll stop misquoting when you start fact checking. Deal? :)

I did mention Guantanamo. U then questioned it, with your reference to the SC. & u really should remember that I withdrew my question and admitted it was irrelevant.

Yes. It was irrelevant. As far as I can tell, every attack you have made on the US in these comments was irrelevant. WHich is why I question why you made them. And I still am questioning.

I hope you feel that I have answered your questions.

I suppose you did. You don't like the US much. And you don't like Israel much. Which came first, I wonder?

Adam said...

Craig,

What do you mean by this entire statement?

"You bet it is. Shades of gray get people killed. It's impossible to make decisions when you cannot make distinctions.

Look at the UN for proof of that."

programmer craig said...

I thought it was pretty self-explanatory, Adam. When it becomes impossible to make distinctions between one type of conduct and another, one act and another - it becomes impossible to make a valid decision about who is right and who is wrong.

You end up with this "everyone is wrong" shit that we hear so much of tehse days. That's fine. That might make people feel better. But it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Does the UN exist to tell the world that everything that's ever been done was wrong?

Maya M said...

I liked this post. You know that I have been for some time interested in your opinion about Israel's existence.
I understand the Jewish Zionists' feelings about founding Israel (except for the "divine right", I don't recognize such rights for anybody, for this reason I'm an Islamophobe, but this is another matter). I try to understand the Arab's feelings about Israel, but cannot. It is so small and deserted, this promised land, Arabs have such large and better territories, why not accomodate the Palestinians and let the whole conflict fade into history! Things such as justice and honour seem to play major role here. But I think honour must be abandoned at the point when it begins to bring more harm than good, and justice - at the point when it becomes lethal. E.g. if a woman becomes pregnant as a result of rape, it is just to make an abortion, few would disagree. But if the pregnancy is already in the 3rd trimester? If the baby is already born, must we drown him, for the sake of justice? We must stop somewhere.
I liked also the end of your previous post, when you mentioned the dead of both sides.