Saturday, September 30, 2006

Ignorance, freudian slip or calculated strategy ?

This last month witnessed interesting debates following the Pope's lecture. The following 3 bloggers made the best and most interesting posts I've read on the controversy, including this article in the Christian Science Monitor. Please go read them now.


(a) American Palestinian .

(b) Suliman .

(c) AngloLibyan .

Religious sensitivities are currently quite high in the world whether we admit it or not, the trick is simply not to get drawn in or if you must then weigh your words wisely ( PS this applies to readers of this blog too ).

It's high time I pitch in my 2 dirhams worth , next on Highlander's blog => The Pope !

52 comments:

shlemazl said...

Quite right. The Pope should apologize and admit that Islam is the best religion of all.

Maya M said...

Dirham is a Libyan currency, I guess?
Let me comment your links in reversed order. I liked AngloLibyan's post linked by you, but I didn't see the Pope even mentioned in it. I don't see a recent post on his blog devoted to the Pope's speech.
I had read Suliman's analysis even before and generally agree with it.
The Palestinian American's post made me feel miserably. Compare it to final part of the article in "Christian Science Monitor" - that Copts fear the Pope's speech will provoke hate crimes against them and blame for this the Pope, not the criminals. For me, this is psychopathology. It's difficult for me to imagine what it feels like to be a member of the Christian minority in a Muslim-majority country. I guess, many of these Christians perceive the intolerance and aggressiveness of the Muslim majority as an unchangeable and undisputable fact of life, like gravity. So when Muslims fire-bomb their churches and stab worshippers and so on because somebody thousands of miles away said or drew something allegedly offensive to Muslims, these Christians blame this speaker/cartoonist, not the Muslim attackers. If somebody engages your friend in a hot dispute at the edge of a cliff and your friend falls and dies, whom will you blame - gravity? Not, you'll blame the other person. But I don't think Muslims are so hopeless. And by the way, why does Palestinian American think the Byzantine emperor was a bigot and a racist? Just because he said a thing millions of us think today? Then, Wafa Sultan and Hirsi Ali are just self-hating racists, shoot 'em and forget about 'em.

Libyan Warrior( KING OF AL-ANDLUS) said...

YEPPE.

programmer craig said...

Maya, good comment I agree with you across the board on this one.

From American Palestinian blog:

Why would the new Pope even suggest something so clearly derogatory after Europe suffered so much due to the cartoon controversy?

Implication being, the victim of aggression should submit and make sure not to provoke the aggressor in the future.

It is time for bridge-building--not destruction--to be the focus and flavor of such comments by world leaders.

Time for bridge building?

What bridge building can be done with people who want to annihilate you?

This section also looks like advice that the west should submit to militant Islam. Yes, it is very discouraging to see somebody who claims to be a Christian make such statements.

And by the way, why does Palestinian American think the Byzantine emperor was a bigot and a racist? Just because he said a thing millions of us think today?

I didn't catch that part, but perhaps muslims don't know who Manuel II Palaiologos was. This should help:


Manuel II Palaiologos

He followed American Palestinian's advice. He became a Dhimmi, and presided over the destruction of his own empire.

As my Jewish friends like to say: Never again!

Never again should any human being on this planet submit in the face of muslim aggression. NEVER. That will also be your fate, if you do, people. Islam is exactlky the same now as it was then. Hasn't changed a bit.

Libyan Warrior( KING OF AL-ANDLUS) said...

It was calculated strategy.

He is not ignorant. He knowms more about Islam then most of the Muslims. he is scred of the truth, in fear that he will lose his job as God on Earth, he is affraid that that their will be no more small boys knocking on his door for him to molest. He is jelouse, that many off his flock have realized the sillyness of his mythical anti-scientific religion, and that they have accepted the truth of ISlam. just like craig, he is shaking in his boots, he is pissing his pants, despite the adult diaper which he wears. I made this comment as "Sinsitive" as i possibly can.:)

Wafa Sultan and Hirsi Ali

Well Wafa is a Jew. And Hisri is a Etheopian Christian. both of these people have commited authrocities against Muslims, in Israel and Etheopia Muslims are stabed, shot, their Mosques are razed, the Quran is burned, and Muslim women are raped in accordance with the biblical law. The JUDEO-CHRISTIAN faith has no race. Like Fat Mike from NOFX said


"Christianity a equal oppertunity killer. White, Black, Brown, and Yellow, will all be shot and slaughtered in the name of Wikid and barbaric faith". - AMP October 2004. Statements similiar have also been made by a Infinate number of Intelectual Authors such as Alan Tecchio ,Sal Canzonieri, Sammy Winston. the list can go on and on. The Majority of these Authors are Atheists and Secular progressive, most of them have written books Comparing the Old and New Testamnet to the Koran. And all have come with the same conclusion that Islam is the most humane, and least violent of the three Abrahamic faiths, according to Sammy Winston the bible is a book who belittles women to the level of "insects" while Islam is a Religion which has "granted women the status of Human Beings and that has set right the wrongs which mankind has commitedtowards them." - American Rationalist June 2006. He also said the Islam was and I qutoe from "The Freethinker"
The May 2006 issue, pages 34-39 "While the Irrational and fanatical followers of Christianity claim the Islam is a intolerant faith, the Muslim Scriptures, as well as historical accounts show it to be the exact
opposite" in the November 2005 issue Sammy Winston stated " If I am forced to live under any of the three faiths I would choose to live under Islam. For the mere fact that I know under a Islamic Society as long as I pay my taxes, I am granted protection, freedom of belife, and freedom to speak my mind, as long as the muslim scriptures are followed in the entirity."

Libyan Warrior( KING OF AL-ANDLUS) said...

As my Jewish friends like to say: Never again!

Why would a Jew not want what his forefathers wanted?


Mehmed II Strict Islamic rule was indeed very tolerant to non-Muslims, a letter from one rabbi to persecuted Jews in Europe read like this;

"Here in the land of the Turks we have nothing to complain of. We possess great fortunes; much gold and silver are in our hands. We are not oppressed with heavy taxes and our commerce is free and unhindered. Rich are the fruits of the Earth. Everything is cheap and everyone of us lives in peace and freedom. Here the Jew is not compelled to wear a yellow star as a badge of shame as is the case in Germany where even wealth and great fortune are a curse for a Jew because he therewith arouses jealousy among the Christians and they devise all kind of slander against him to rob him of his gold. Arise my brethren, gird up your loins, collect all your forces and come to us.


-Constantinople : City of the World's Desire, 1453-1924-Phillip Mansel pg 15

programmer craig said...

Mehmed II Strict Islamic rule was indeed very tolerant to non-Muslims

That isn't what the dhimmi Emperor of Byszantium said, is it?

Islam was even less tolerant then (when it was in power) than it is now.

And Islam is, now, completely intolerant. Completely, 100%, ZERO tolerance for anything unislamic.

Libyan Warrior( KING OF AL-ANDLUS) said...

Emperor of Byszantium

What is this byszantium you speak of? I think you mean Byzantine craig. His word is not valid.For the mere fact that he is a direct enemy of Islam, and a oppressor of Muslims, he is a enemy of tolerance. I go by what the Historians and intelectuals say, not by what a direct foe of the people we are discussing says. In order to find the truth we must bring individuals who have no stake in the matter to be outside neutral parties. The words of Atheists, Scientists, Progressive Seculartists, Historians, who study things from a outside perspective are the views which we must open ourselves to if we are to rationally discuss this situation.

"Islam is, now, completely intolerant. Completely, 100%, ZERO tolerance for anything unislamic"

Craig you are contridicting yourself. You said Islam has not changed, and know you are claiming it has. Please Craig I would ask you to eductate your self about the topics of discussion you engage yourself in.

in anycase, Peace and glad tiding be upon you.

programmer craig said...

You say this:

Peace and glad tiding be upon you.

After all the hateful crap you say about murdering everybody else who isn't exactly what you are, a muslim Berber?

And you accuse me of contradicting myself? :P

I suggest that you realize that The White christian is a Minority in America and we Asians, Middle Easterners, Africans, and hispanics, are the majoity.

And you display such an appalling lack of knowledge of the demographics of the country you were born and raised in, and then tell me I don't know history? You don't even know what reality in the present is. The US is still over 60% white, guy. 22% Hispanic. 14% black. The remainder is everyone else, no group over 5%.

Do some actual research before you comment in the future please. Google isn't that hard to use, man. I used to have to go to the Library and read actual books. You have it so easy, how can you be so uninformed?

Libyan Warrior( KING OF AL-ANDLUS) said...

The white population according to the US census department has been 60% for the past 20 years. This is complete and total bullshit. for many reason.

1. WHITES RUN THE CENSUS DEPARTMENT.

2. ALL INDEPENDENT REPORTS SHOW HISPANICS MAKE UP SOME 32%+ of the population.

3. Blacks make up over 20% of the population.

4. ASIANS make up 11% of the population.

5. RACIALLY MIXED INDIVIDUALS ARE THROWN INTO THE "WHITE" LABEL.

6. The DEFENITION OF WHITE

White- A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, North Africa, or the Middle East. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Near Easterner, Arab, or Polish.

No White Guy, when I say I mean
WHITE EUROPEAN CHRISTIAN.

We all know who we are talking about. We are not talking about David who is Jewish , We are not talking about Asad from Syria, we are not talking about Ramzan from Bosnia or Albania!!

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WHITE EUROPEAN CHRISTIANS> I would include the label to mean European American. but the fact that THE NATIONAL VANGAURD the leading White Rights Association in America has labeled muslims from the Balkans as NON-WHITES. Becuase they do not share common customs and sympathise of their fellow WHITES.

And what really pisses me off about your shitty little label is, you guys wanna cry about how we Arabs and Muslims should not be angry about Systamtic racial profiling at airports, becuase WHITES such as yourselves are profiled everyday by affermative action, what you forget is SO ARE WE!!!!!! You call us WHITE to screw us out of any rights and then when we oppresed whites are amongst ourselves you start labeling the visable Arabs 'Sand Niggers" and the ones of Us who look like you, but have diffrent names then you are "ISLAMOFACIST sleeper cells". Shawn hanitys words not mine. yup he said that Fair Skinned Arab and north African muslims, and Muslims from the Balkans are the "enemy from within"
Whats up with that Dude?

Stop the GAMES WASP. You know DAMN well who we mean by White.

Thank God for Hispanics, I swear to god, I am able to sleep better at night knowing that they are coming in record numbers and reproducing in like bunnies.( Must eat you up)

Because I know when the day comes, and this country goes Helter Skelter like it did during Kitrina, when the "Niggers" "Chinks" and "Wetbacks" start shoting white men on the streets, and raping white women, like they do every single day, I will simply put on my skull cap, and start speaking Arabic to every black and hispanic I see I will put a Huge ALLAH AKBAR flag on my door, a Large VIVA LA MEXICO flag next to it.


Just so they wont mix me up with you. Its comin dude, brace yourself, if I where you i would by a Skull Cap too, or maybe one of those nice Yamaka hats the jews wear.... Hmmm Blacks hate Jews, better go for the skull cap :)

Libyan Warrior( KING OF AL-ANDLUS) said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
programmer craig said...

1. WHITES RUN THE CENSUS DEPARTMENT.

Oh, is THAT what it is!? :P

Well, as a guy who was married to a woman (my ex is Chinese by the way) who worked for the government the whole 10 years we were married, I'm here to tell you that there is no part of the US government bureaucracy that is run by whites.

But don't worry your little head with things like that, you've got ludicrous things to say :P

Stop the GAMES WASP.

Yes. I am a WASP. And like all other WASPs in the United States, I am a descendant of the original English colonists. You know why that is, Berber?

It's because the US has had a quota of ZERO for Northern European immigration to the US for over 100 years, with the exception of the Irish who came here as refugees.

We don't let WHITES (as per your definition) immigrate to the US anymore. And look at the way you crow that whites are a dwindling majority, and then rant that the same US Government that set and maintained that policy that discrimnates against WHITES is racist against non-Whites.

I'd make my starndard comment that you can't have it both ways here, except you are LibyanWarrior. You always have it both ways, because your brain functions abnormally.

The rest of your racist rantings are only interesting because you are the same person who wished peace upon me and all other Americans a few hours ago, and no you are apparrently hoping for a race war that kills us all. *sigh*

Well, dude, when that happens (which of course, it won't), I'll be with my people and you'll be with yours.

Who are your people again? Berbers? You got a large muslim Berber community where you live? Wouldn't wanna be you :(

programmer craig said...

Hey, by the way, LibyanWarrior - you ever been in a race riot? I was here during the LA riots:

1992 Los Angeles Riots

And I remember them well. It was supposed to be black violence against whites, but the only white victims were people caught on their way home from work on the first day, the idealistic whites who were in protest marches with blacks when the rioting began, and the idealistic whites who chose to live in black neighborhoods.

You know who the biggest victims were? Koreans and Chinese. Because their neighborhoods were adjacent to black neighborhoods. Mexican neighborhoods are too, but the Mexicans laid low and defended their own neighborhoods. Blacks could have driven out to a white neighborhood in the Suburbs (like where I live) but they didn't. Because, you know, we have a lot of rednecks, bikers, neo-nazis and various other kinds of white trash. And you know us white folk... we all have guns, and we're just itching for a chance to use em.

Word of warning. The only people who will be standing with you during a race riot is your own kind. It's the nature of the beast.

Libyan Warrior( KING OF AL-ANDLUS) said...

Intresting perspective. I was 5 during the riots and dont remember hearing of them . I geuss I better head over to Deerborn. Where My kind are welcome. :)

But what i can say is this buddy. it sure says alot about your religion. CHRISTIANITY. Why most of those blacks, Whites, and Hispanics where. OMG. CHRISTIANS. Something like that would never happen in a Muslim neighborhood. I dont think any Nigerian muslims would beat any Bosnian Muslims, or any Indonesian Muslims will beating up any Arab Muslims, or any Pakistanis, would beat on any Dargastani Muslims. So once you have proved my point. ISLAM IS PEACE WHILE CHRISTIANITY IS VIOLENCE.

And since the Pope and the Clash of Civilizations is what we are discussing, this just is another example of your savagery.


When the US funded terrorist attacks occured in Lebonan, every Muslim Country has huge protests be it in North Africa, The Middle East, South Asia, Central Asia, Russia, The Balkans, Indonesia, ect. And hence we have finally come to the conclusion that the followers of Islam do not have the silly notion of "RACE" in their minds, no sir its CHRISTIANS. Who breed hate. When i go to the Mosque I dont go to a special one where only Berbers go, or where only Whites go. We dont have that in Islam.

All Muslims pray in the same mosque unlike Christianity. Where whites have their churches, and blacks have theirs, and yellows have their ect.. This Just Proves how primative and sickminded your faith is.


It's the nature of the beast

: Well thank you for clearing the fact that Christianity is the BEAST craig. :)

Why this is just another reason why you should reject his wikid racist nature, and come to ISLAM, and be amongst the worshipers of God. But I geuss knowing you and your devotion to evil, we will have to wait till Jesus(PBUH) comes and slays the beast. Then his wikid spell shall be broken.

Peace and glad tidings my Redneck friend.( Your words PC not mine). :)

programmer craig said...

Something like that would never happen in a Muslim neighborhood.

Tell it to the Iraqis or the Lebanese. Or better yet, tell it to the Palestinains. Fatah and HAMAS are engaged in running gun battles in the street as we speak.

I geuss I better head over to Deerborn. Where My kind are welcome. :)

Perhaps you should head over to Libya, where your kind are MORE welcome. I don't think Arabs in dearborn will be happy to have a racist berber living amongst them and advocating racial violence, as you've been doing here.

But you do as you like, man. You always do anyway.

Libyan Warrior( KING OF AL-ANDLUS) said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Libyan Warrior( KING OF AL-ANDLUS) said...

Na. Dude I know tons of Dudes in Dearborn, my record label is based in Deerborn.lol. Those dudes would love to have me over their. Dude I dont have freedom in the state I am living in. I cant dress Islamicly or in my Traditional clothing, I cant wave my Islamic Flag, I cant have any intresting bumber stickers on my car, but in Deerborn I would be amongst friends. Also Libya may be a bit culturaly bland for the Libyan Warrior. i have met so many people here in the United States of Israel, I have learned so much. I have picked up Pakistani customs, Arab customs, Indonesian Customs, Turkish Customs, Crotasian Customs, Chechyna Customs, not to mention the unique Islamic Customs which resinate only here in America. No Craig I think I like it here better. not going anywhere. maybe I will be the Governer of Michagian. The Mayor of Deerborn.lol. Wouldnt that be intresting. Maybe we will secede from the union? Why not I am a Huge advocate for state rights. I will by a Arab headdress, maybe I we should call Michigan NEW ARABIA. I mean why not you have New England, why cant i have NEW ARABIA. Yes thats what we should do throught democratic process. If all Americans are truley equal and their is no prejudice, and bigotry this should occur. We should all encourage all Arabs and Muslims to michigan. The Mormons have Utha, we should have Michigan, a place with all our of Achivments. Why not make Michigan a Islamic State. I mean Utha is a Mormon state, their are laws prohibiting Alchoal, having sex with a virgin(even if you marry a virgin)you have to cross state lines to consomate the marriage. Intresting. I thought their was a seperation of Church and state. Well if they get their rightsto run a Religiose state then why cant Muslims have their rights. I am not saying that we want a religouse state. but what i want personally is a NEW ARABIA state. I think its only fair. I would also like the Government to review the ports deal. Why didnt the UAE get the ports? Why do WHITE EUROPEAN CHRISTIAN countries get to run ports, I though being born and raised here made me a Muslim and North African have the same rights as you a Christain and Anglo Saxon. It the Government was not racist they should allow more deals with Non Christian Non-European nations, Muslim Americans are tired of being treated as second class citzens by the elite White European Christians who run the government. What ever happened to al men are created equal? Why is america so christian-centric, why is it so Euro-Centric? DEMOCRACY NOW CARIG. The Majority of Americans do not support Military AID to Israel but yet the racist religouse FANATICS such as yourselves have taken it upon your selves to fund a country based on your religose belifes. What happened to Secular America? WE WANT DEMOCRACY CRAIG. We dont want your Christian Facist Draconian Middle Ages government.

programmer craig said...

Talk about keyboard diarhia! I stopped after about the 5 "dude" - that's about my limit.

Nomad said...

hey Craig, give him a gmail address :lol:

Libyan Warrior( KING OF AL-ANDLUS) said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Nomad said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Highlander said...

LW I'm deleting your last comment. Sorry that was too much out of bounds - I said no insults , discussion , politics is fine. But you don't know nomad so don't start with her . I was so proud of you for the last days that you were able to say what you wanted without using bad language , please continue doing so. Nomad I will delete your last comment because it refers to LW's bad comments - Je sais que tu me comprends :) les guerriers sont de retour mais je vois qu'un de ces combattants n'as toujours pas compris sa lecon .

Nomad said...

it 's OK, Highlander, I was merely amused !

programmer craig said...

Death to France! ( sorry :P )

Nomad said...

I know it's your deep thought ! :lol:

Twosret said...

Highlander,

I'm very sick of the comments sections on all blogs seriously, you need to start deleting comments of people who are harassing others too.

What is so wrong of people NOT agreeing on each others political views, why do some have to harass, intimidate and acuse others of being terrorists or murderers simply because they are not in agreement.

In my view this is also very distasteful and as bad as foul language and insults.

Enough is enough, the comment section is sickening, I lose interest once I see some people posting on your blog.

Why doesn't everyone give their views and shut up for a change instead of posting million posts on all blogs with the same hate, anger, stupid debate that never ends and it doesn't do anything but childish fights.

Non-Blogging said...

Agree a lot with Twosret which is incredible knowing the two of us probably were quite similar some months ago on this blog ;-). The point is, anyway, that that was then and this is now and we seem to have grown out of it.

I've stayed here for months because of a most lovely blog hostess and the interesting discussions and debates. However, now the blog hostess is still lovely but I'm also rapidly losing my interest in the comments sections if even with a glimpse I can see that I better pass 90% by without reading. As comments are a crucial part of any self-respecting blog, all this has a negative effect on the whole blog as well, independent of the loveliness of the hostess ;-).

Nomad said...

do not worry for me, I am in used to get harassed because of french policies : I got a harsh tan by now ; I even made peace with Craig, which was not obvious, but may-be it was easier as a woman !

Anonymous said...

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/christian_terrorism_in_northeast_india.htm

Redneck

Anonymous said...

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/10.html

Redneck

Libyan Warrior( KING OF AL-ANDLUS) said...

Well i am having a BLAST. I am sorry you guys arent. You should put your two cents worth. What else can I tell you. I cant ehlp but feel i have hendered the blog, which is not my intention. If I am asked I am asked to leave I will.

Anonymous said...

The pope's guide on how to protect the kiddie fiddlers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/28_09_06_Crimen_english.pdf

Watch Panorama - top right link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5397346.stm

Indeed he is a very credible person that old Ratzinger is

Anonymous said...

last comment was by me

Redneck

Highlander said...

Hi Shlemazl , not sure what you mean pls elaborate :)

Maya :) yes Dirham is the small change in the Libyan currency. The Libyan currency is the Dinar and one Dinar = 1000 Dirhams
With regards to your questions I suggest you ask Paletinian American about his opinions ( he has a comment section by the way). He may be more able to help. As for Wafa or Ayan, I don't agree about their actions but I respect their rights and they are free to do what they want :)

LW - actually you are wrong on this:
Something like that would never happen in a Muslim neighborhood. I dont think any Nigerian muslims would beat any Bosnian Muslims, or any Indonesian Muslims will beating up any Arab Muslims, or any Pakistanis, would beat on any Dargastani Muslims.[sic]

I daresay Muslims have been known to kill each other violently in the past and now.

By the way LW :) - no you are not asked to leave but you are asked to keep strictly to the topic without going into: Berbers, Arabs , Libyans, Christians, Muslims unecessarily etc...& without baiting Craig, or insulting Maya and Nomad ( or me or any Christian or Jew for the matter ).
I believe you can disagree without being rude right ?You should not be having a BLAST at my expense .

Programmer_Craig my friend :) :
What bridge building can be done with people who want to annihilate you?

Do you really believe all the Muslims seek the anihilation of others ? I'm sure you don't meant that even though it is what the above statement seems to imply.

Also don't let LW get under your skin and this problem of commenting should get resolved, then you would not get too far from the topic ;) Also if you disagree about the actions of some Arabs or Muslims it may help to phrase it in a way which does not suggest they are all 'bad' people.
Some of us who have known you as a reader for a while are aware what you mean :) but other readers who don't know you, may get offended.


Twosret habibti and NBA thanks point taken.

Nomad :) I know you have a big mind and understand - Merci

Redneck yes I've seen this quote from the Bible, but you know what ? someone will say that it is the Old Testament and they don't follow that anymore, or that the West now is able to pick and choose and these things are not applicable currently. What do you think can be the counter argument ?

As for the Pope allegedly advocating cover up of child sex abuse by the church staff , I'm shocked to hear that and find it hypocritical but maybe it has an explanation? maybe someone has an agenda and wishes to dirty his name ? what do you think ?

programmer craig said...

Do you really believe all the Muslims seek the anihilation of others ?

No, of course not. But the ones in power do. And this "Redneck" on your blog does. And LibyanWarrior does.

I know you don't, Highlander, but when I see muslims say what they say on blogs, in the media, on the street, in the polls... and I don't hear other muslims countering, what am I supposed to think?

Look at the way you just defended Redneck's all out attack on Christianity just now?

That tells me you think it's OK for muslims to attack Christianity. But you obviously DO NOT think it's OK for Christians to attack Islam.

Maya M said...

I gave Wafa Sultan and Hirsi Ali just as examples of critics of Islam who belong to the same ethnic groups as most Muslims (and in fact originate from Islamic communities). So you cannot automatically call somebody a racist just because he criticizes Islam, unless you postulate that all Arabs, Pakistanis, Somalis etc. who criticize Islam are self-hating racists.
I wouldn't comment on the Palestinian American's blog, because the gap between our views seems so broad that no bridge can be built by the power of the Word. I don't see any need to exchange useless accusations and insults, so I never comment on blogs of Islamists and other 100% opponents. Most of them don't troll on my blog, either.
Redneck's citation is from the New Tastement - these are Jesus Christ's words. I cannot speak for Christians, but I think if I were a Christian, I would still have no problem with these words because, as you know, I am not a pacifist. Let's leave the problem for the pacifists, it's the least they deserve :).

Anonymous said...

Where did I attack the whole of Christianity?

Redneck

Libyan Warrior( KING OF AL-ANDLUS) said...

I gave Wafa Sultan and Hirsi Ali just as examples of critics of Islam who belong to the same ethnic groups as most Muslims

Most Muslims are not black, and most Muslims are not Arabs. i think you need to read up on the Demographics of the Muslim World.


So you cannot automatically call somebody a racist just because he criticizes Islam

No you cant.

But the fact that the majority of criticism of islam comes from a region of the world that is known historically for its racist views, so racist that individuals who did not have the same eye colour and hair colour as the rest of the people in this part of the world where grabed in the Middle of the night and rushed of to extermanation camps becuase they where considered to be unpure.

So Yes generally speaking no one can blame anyone for coming to the conclusion that the race of Muslims who's majority are non-white comes into play when hatred and bigotry towards Islam is fostered. And when the majority of these criticisms come from a group of people who belive in a faith that is just as "violent and intolerant" if not more so, well t people start to wonder if it is racism. Also Groups such as the KKK and Aryan Nations, and The BNP who interjet a racist element in their crusade against the
Muslims, also tend to sway the feeling of racism when it comes to critics of Islam.

programmer craig said...

Highlander,

Redneck yes I've seen this quote from the Bible, but you know what ? someone will say that it is the Old Testament and they don't follow that anymore, or that the West now is able to pick and choose and these things are not applicable currently. What do you think can be the counter argument ?

Redneck did not quote from the Old Testamen. He quoted from the New Testament, out of context. This is the problem when muslims claim to revere Jesus as a Prophet, but know nothing of the teachings of Jesus. Matthew 10 is Jesus speaking to the 12 Apostles.

Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Which is followed by:

Matthew 10:35 "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

Jesus is not talking about war here, he is talking about upsetting the status quo (which was the foundation of his teaching - Judaism had gone astray) even within families.

There is some good stuff in that link, even though it's a website written to discredit Christianity.

Matthew 10:33 "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

Redneck just denied the teachings of Jesus. Do you, Highlander? If so, why do you say Jesus is a Prophet of yours?

Matthew 10:16 "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

Seems something in there might be appropriate in today's world. But not for me.

Matthew 10:12 "And when ye come into an house, salute it."

Mathew 10:13 "And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you."

Mathew 10:14 "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet."


Too bad Islam doesn't take that approach to spreading the message, isn't it? The world would be a much better place right now.

All the good things Redneck could have quoted. And he chose the one line that seemed to advocate violence, and quoted it out of context so that it seemed so. And you supported him in that, Highlander. What would you say if I did the same with the Quran?

By the way, I unearthed this lost piece of scripture that the Q-Man has been looking for, which has the *real* message of Jesus!

Burrabus 7:5

A yellow bird with a yellow bill
Was perched upon my window sill
I lured him in with a piece of bread
And then I smashed his f@#%ing head

Libyan said...

The posts over in this section show the hypocrisy of some Christians in the West. First they believe them selves to be tolerant and thus better then Muslim that they perceive intolerant. They complain “Militant Islam” while praise their troops that are occupying Muslim countries. They complain about the restriction of freedom of speech while they restrict the freedoms of others, if some one speaks of the oppressive Jews in Israel then they are anti semitic. A news channel that shows pictures of dead Muslims killed by Christians ( Aljazeera, Abudabi) gets bombed [yes it did happen]. Christians praise them selves on how they have open societies with no racist laws, while Muslims living in those societies suffer from racial profiling and discrimination. They complain [Christians] about Muslims being closed minded, yet those same people post the most intolerant rubbish.
Its easy too come off as confrontational while writing anonymously in blogs, soon the whole discussion escalates and every one shows an ugly side, that they might have never had. I guess my point is that if you are going to accuse people don’t be guilty of the same thing your accusing them off.
Maya M for such a hater, I don’t know why you spend so much time in a Muslim blog.

Non-Blogging said...

Libyan, instead of writing stuff which to me sounds like straight from the Book of Ranting Clichés, what about continuing the discussion on Palestine/Western Sahara we had in the Omar Mukhtar thread? I'd be very interested in your comments to my latest comment, in case you don't find mine embarassing ;-).

Highlander said...

Programmer_Craig , I'm not sure what is the aim of the Burrabus quote. But it does come out as 'somewhat' threatening.

Anonymous said...

Highlander,

I guess your question has been answered. The quote I have posted from the bible needs to be looked at what "context" it appeared. ;)

But when Muslims make the same arguments when Quranic verses are splashed all over the net. It is no go for them, they are not allowed to explain in what "context" it appeared. It just shows you the hypocrisy of some posters on this blog.

Libyan...excellent post could not have put it better myself.

Redneck

programmer craig said...

Redneck, don't try to explain away your own deliberate misconduct by saying "other people do it too" - are you 12 years old?

programmer craig said...

Highlander,

Programmer_Craig , I'm not sure what is the aim of the Burrabus quote. But it does come out as 'somewhat' threatening.

And that's exactly the way muslims sound whenever they talk about Christianity. See "Libyans" comment for an example. Christins don't accept Mohamed as a Prophet. Muslims supposedly do accept Jesus as aProphet (they say so ALL THE TIME). I'm waiting for an explanation of why it is muslims feel they can be so disrespectful and so hateful towards Jesus and his teachings when they say they respect all of their own Propehts/ Is that a lie? Is there only one Prophet muslims respect? Then please, muslims, leave MY religion out of yours. Nobody ever asked you to co-opt Jesus.

Linyan said...

I thought my reply was original, as for the debate about Palestine/Western Sahara, I agree with your point. No one should colonize or occupy another people, and I am a big fan self determination. But I was taking a guess at explaining why people in the Middle East are more passionate about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict than they are about other conflicts in the region, for example Darfur or Iraq. I still think that when the perpetrators of colonization/occupation are foreign it arouses more anger, especially when it involves large scale ethnic cleansing like in Palestine. I know that some people will oppose the idea that Israel is responsible for large scale ethnic cleansing, but think about it, they wanted to create a Jewish home land, on land inhibited mostly by non-Jews, what was going to happen to most of those people?

P. C.
“And that's exactly the way Muslims sound whenever they talk about Christianity. See "Libyans" comment for an example”
That was my point exactly, I made a lot of generalizations but they were all true, whether it’s about discrimination against Muslims, or occupation of Muslim lands or bombing of Muslim media. I know those events don’t represent most Western people, and its not fair to associate ordinary Christians with what their governments do. But in some of your posts you are guilty of associating Muslims with what some extremists do, also you have a skewed knowledge of Muslim history, probably picked it up from right wing blogs. You also agree with what some of Maya M says and she has a MAJOR HATE PROBLEM. So again don’t be guilty of what you accuse others of doing.

Non-Blogging said...

Libyan,

As a complete outsider to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict - I take no sides except for the side of peace and common sense as readers here know, whether they appreciate it or not ;-) - I still seriously don't get it why Palestine is so central to many a Muslim's/Arab's rants while of course in the meanwhile I feel sorry for those Palestinian who had to leave their ancestral lands or are living under occupation.

I popped up to an openly Islamophobic website today with a link to the article below. The former I only mentioned in order to make it sure that the article is certainly somewhat biased. Myself, I can't confirm the figures neither do I agree with all the wordings there. However, as on outsider reading stuff like this really makes me wonder. As an inquiring mind, I'm of course ready to hear an explanation as a learning experience ;-).

A dead person is a dead person, independent of who the killer is, and if we think every life is as valuable as any other life, Palestine pales in comparison with other crimes perpetrated in the Arab world, by outsider or Arabs themselves.

(Maya, if you happen to be reading this, I'm sure you'll love the article!)

Check the article here:

http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/483/521.html

programmer craig said...

Libyan,

also you have a skewed knowledge of Muslim history, probably picked it up from right wing blogs.

I don't even read any American blogs and I never have. Right wing or otherwise. 90% of the blogs I read are ME ones.

Are you sure it's me who has a "skewed" version of muslim history?

Why not argue that point, then? As best I can tell, most muslims don't know a damn thing about their own history, and accuse anybody who doesn't agree with what they've been taught of been brainwashed. Or. of having a "skewed" view :P

You also agree with what some of Maya M says and she has a MAJOR HATE PROBLEM.

Yes I do and yes she does. You might be surprised how many people are developing a major hate problem. As you said yourself, if she hated arabs/muslims as much as you think, why does she spend time on arab and muslim blogs?

Why do I? Seriously, have you ever thought about it?

Libyan said...

P.C.

“Yes I do and yes she does. You might be surprised how many people are developing a major hate problem.”
Believe me it doesn’t surprise me at all. This is actually very consistent with Western history. The other day for a class assignment we had to look at newspapers from the time of the American Civil War, let’s just say that Whites at that time had a major hate problem against Blacks. Not to mention Nazi propaganda. The way I look at it, its our turn .
any way from what I understand is that you are blaming Muslims for the hate problem that’s brewing in the West. And you also blame Muslim for hating the West. It takes two to tango (sorry for the cliché).

“As you said yourself, if she hated arabs/muslims as much as you think, why does she spend time on arab and muslim blogs?
Why do I? Seriously, have you ever thought about it?”
Lets not paly a guesing game and you tell me?

Libyan said...

Non-Blogging
That website makes interesting arguments, and to some extent I agree with them. The biggest problem, is it tries to justify Israeli aggression by saying that there are bigger massacres out their, instead of actually admitting when Israel has made mistakes. What gets me about Israelis is that everything that they have committed is always justifiable for them, they never take responsibility. But for their credit Arabs have done worse, I used to be big supporter of Arab causes, until security forces in Algeria killed about 200 Berber protesters. the incident was brunched aside by the media and also by the people.

P.C.
“Then please, muslims, leave MY religion out of yours. Nobody ever asked you to co-opt Jesus.”
I thought Jesus was middle eastern Jew? I could be wrong, besides isn’t the monotheistic god Egyptian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atenism
Sometimes you have to think before you type, the people you gave this advice too had Christian ancestors before you did, and they are still part of an evolving Middle Eastern religion that went through many phases, Christianity was only one phase.

programmer craig said...

Libyan,

I thought Jesus was middle eastern Jew?

Jesus was Christ. His followers are called "Christians" - not muslims.

I cannot begin to tell you how offensive it is to see a muslim like Ahmadinejad say that he knows Christ better than Christians do.

And I cannot begin to tell you how offensive it is to have muslims call Chist one of THEIR prophets, while at the same time they ridicule his teachings, as Redneck and LibyanWarrior both did in this very comment section.

If muslims think Jesus and his teachings were so laughable, then stop calling him an Islamic Prophet. He isn't.

I could be wrong, besides isn’t the monotheistic god Egyptian.

Abraham predates the 14th century BC by some 2000 years I think. And Noah was long before Abraham's time.

That is an interesting (I guess) link. A minor sun god who got elevated to the ONE God, by a pahraoh... for 20 years? That doesn't qualify as a religion in my book.

Actually I just did some more research on that, and it appears Aten was not considered the ONLY God under Amenhotep III, he was just considered the primary God.

If you're really interested (and not just starting trouble) Zoroastrianism is considered the formative religion of the three Abrahamic faiths - and most likely of this Aten worship as well. Atenism was roughly contemporary with the time of Moses. Ahura Mazda is older. Ahura Mazda is mentioned in the earliest Hebrew scriptures.

Sometimes you have to think before you type, the people you gave this advice too had Christian ancestors before you did

And then they converted to Islam. What's your point? That it's OK for muslims to denounce Christians because they had Christian ancestors? That it's OK for muslims to denounce Jesus, because he is mentioned in the Quran?

and they are still part of an evolving Middle Eastern religion that went through many phases, Christianity was only one phase.

If you've moved "beyond" it, then let go of it. It's not your religion, anymore. You do not respect the teachings of Jesus, any more. In fact, most muslims I see on blogs seem to absolutely loathe Christians, and by extension, loathe Jesus. STop pretending you revere him. You don't. You (or at least most the muslim commenters in this thread) denounce and demean his teachings at every opportunity. What little of his teachings you know, that is. Which isn't very much! And that's being charitable :)

Maya M said...

Non-Blogging, thank you for referring me to that article - it was an important read, although sad. I even feel guilty to the people of Bangladesh because I didn't know about that genocide. Indeed, this is not entirely my fault; it had to be mentioned in my history textbooks but their Communist authors apparently didn't find it important enough, coloured people butchering each other, why care... Don't believe when Leftists claim they are not racist! They are exactly as likely to be racist as anybody else.