Saturday, September 30, 2006

Ignorance, freudian slip or calculated strategy ?

This last month witnessed interesting debates following the Pope's lecture. The following 3 bloggers made the best and most interesting posts I've read on the controversy, including this article in the Christian Science Monitor. Please go read them now.


(a) American Palestinian .

(b) Suliman .

(c) AngloLibyan .

Religious sensitivities are currently quite high in the world whether we admit it or not, the trick is simply not to get drawn in or if you must then weigh your words wisely ( PS this applies to readers of this blog too ).

It's high time I pitch in my 2 dirhams worth , next on Highlander's blog => The Pope !

22 comments:

Maya M said...

Dirham is a Libyan currency, I guess?
Let me comment your links in reversed order. I liked AngloLibyan's post linked by you, but I didn't see the Pope even mentioned in it. I don't see a recent post on his blog devoted to the Pope's speech.
I had read Suliman's analysis even before and generally agree with it.
The Palestinian American's post made me feel miserably. Compare it to final part of the article in "Christian Science Monitor" - that Copts fear the Pope's speech will provoke hate crimes against them and blame for this the Pope, not the criminals. For me, this is psychopathology. It's difficult for me to imagine what it feels like to be a member of the Christian minority in a Muslim-majority country. I guess, many of these Christians perceive the intolerance and aggressiveness of the Muslim majority as an unchangeable and undisputable fact of life, like gravity. So when Muslims fire-bomb their churches and stab worshippers and so on because somebody thousands of miles away said or drew something allegedly offensive to Muslims, these Christians blame this speaker/cartoonist, not the Muslim attackers. If somebody engages your friend in a hot dispute at the edge of a cliff and your friend falls and dies, whom will you blame - gravity? Not, you'll blame the other person. But I don't think Muslims are so hopeless. And by the way, why does Palestinian American think the Byzantine emperor was a bigot and a racist? Just because he said a thing millions of us think today? Then, Wafa Sultan and Hirsi Ali are just self-hating racists, shoot 'em and forget about 'em.

programmer craig said...

Maya, good comment I agree with you across the board on this one.

From American Palestinian blog:

Why would the new Pope even suggest something so clearly derogatory after Europe suffered so much due to the cartoon controversy?

Implication being, the victim of aggression should submit and make sure not to provoke the aggressor in the future.

It is time for bridge-building--not destruction--to be the focus and flavor of such comments by world leaders.

Time for bridge building?

What bridge building can be done with people who want to annihilate you?

This section also looks like advice that the west should submit to militant Islam. Yes, it is very discouraging to see somebody who claims to be a Christian make such statements.

And by the way, why does Palestinian American think the Byzantine emperor was a bigot and a racist? Just because he said a thing millions of us think today?

I didn't catch that part, but perhaps muslims don't know who Manuel II Palaiologos was. This should help:


Manuel II Palaiologos

He followed American Palestinian's advice. He became a Dhimmi, and presided over the destruction of his own empire.

As my Jewish friends like to say: Never again!

Never again should any human being on this planet submit in the face of muslim aggression. NEVER. That will also be your fate, if you do, people. Islam is exactlky the same now as it was then. Hasn't changed a bit.

programmer craig said...

Hey, by the way, LibyanWarrior - you ever been in a race riot? I was here during the LA riots:

1992 Los Angeles Riots

And I remember them well. It was supposed to be black violence against whites, but the only white victims were people caught on their way home from work on the first day, the idealistic whites who were in protest marches with blacks when the rioting began, and the idealistic whites who chose to live in black neighborhoods.

You know who the biggest victims were? Koreans and Chinese. Because their neighborhoods were adjacent to black neighborhoods. Mexican neighborhoods are too, but the Mexicans laid low and defended their own neighborhoods. Blacks could have driven out to a white neighborhood in the Suburbs (like where I live) but they didn't. Because, you know, we have a lot of rednecks, bikers, neo-nazis and various other kinds of white trash. And you know us white folk... we all have guns, and we're just itching for a chance to use em.

Word of warning. The only people who will be standing with you during a race riot is your own kind. It's the nature of the beast.

programmer craig said...

Talk about keyboard diarhia! I stopped after about the 5 "dude" - that's about my limit.

NOMAD said...

hey Craig, give him a gmail address :lol:

NOMAD said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Highlander said...

LW I'm deleting your last comment. Sorry that was too much out of bounds - I said no insults , discussion , politics is fine. But you don't know nomad so don't start with her . I was so proud of you for the last days that you were able to say what you wanted without using bad language , please continue doing so. Nomad I will delete your last comment because it refers to LW's bad comments - Je sais que tu me comprends :) les guerriers sont de retour mais je vois qu'un de ces combattants n'as toujours pas compris sa lecon .

NOMAD said...

it 's OK, Highlander, I was merely amused !

programmer craig said...

Death to France! ( sorry :P )

NOMAD said...

I know it's your deep thought ! :lol:

Twosret said...

Highlander,

I'm very sick of the comments sections on all blogs seriously, you need to start deleting comments of people who are harassing others too.

What is so wrong of people NOT agreeing on each others political views, why do some have to harass, intimidate and acuse others of being terrorists or murderers simply because they are not in agreement.

In my view this is also very distasteful and as bad as foul language and insults.

Enough is enough, the comment section is sickening, I lose interest once I see some people posting on your blog.

Why doesn't everyone give their views and shut up for a change instead of posting million posts on all blogs with the same hate, anger, stupid debate that never ends and it doesn't do anything but childish fights.

NOMAD said...

do not worry for me, I am in used to get harassed because of french policies : I got a harsh tan by now ; I even made peace with Craig, which was not obvious, but may-be it was easier as a woman !

Anonymous said...

The pope's guide on how to protect the kiddie fiddlers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/28_09_06_Crimen_english.pdf

Watch Panorama - top right link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5397346.stm

Indeed he is a very credible person that old Ratzinger is

Highlander said...

Hi Shlemazl , not sure what you mean pls elaborate :)

Maya :) yes Dirham is the small change in the Libyan currency. The Libyan currency is the Dinar and one Dinar = 1000 Dirhams
With regards to your questions I suggest you ask Paletinian American about his opinions ( he has a comment section by the way). He may be more able to help. As for Wafa or Ayan, I don't agree about their actions but I respect their rights and they are free to do what they want :)

LW - actually you are wrong on this:
Something like that would never happen in a Muslim neighborhood. I dont think any Nigerian muslims would beat any Bosnian Muslims, or any Indonesian Muslims will beating up any Arab Muslims, or any Pakistanis, would beat on any Dargastani Muslims.[sic]

I daresay Muslims have been known to kill each other violently in the past and now.

By the way LW :) - no you are not asked to leave but you are asked to keep strictly to the topic without going into: Berbers, Arabs , Libyans, Christians, Muslims unecessarily etc...& without baiting Craig, or insulting Maya and Nomad ( or me or any Christian or Jew for the matter ).
I believe you can disagree without being rude right ?You should not be having a BLAST at my expense .

Programmer_Craig my friend :) :
What bridge building can be done with people who want to annihilate you?

Do you really believe all the Muslims seek the anihilation of others ? I'm sure you don't meant that even though it is what the above statement seems to imply.

Also don't let LW get under your skin and this problem of commenting should get resolved, then you would not get too far from the topic ;) Also if you disagree about the actions of some Arabs or Muslims it may help to phrase it in a way which does not suggest they are all 'bad' people.
Some of us who have known you as a reader for a while are aware what you mean :) but other readers who don't know you, may get offended.


Twosret habibti and NBA thanks point taken.

Nomad :) I know you have a big mind and understand - Merci

Redneck yes I've seen this quote from the Bible, but you know what ? someone will say that it is the Old Testament and they don't follow that anymore, or that the West now is able to pick and choose and these things are not applicable currently. What do you think can be the counter argument ?

As for the Pope allegedly advocating cover up of child sex abuse by the church staff , I'm shocked to hear that and find it hypocritical but maybe it has an explanation? maybe someone has an agenda and wishes to dirty his name ? what do you think ?

Maya M said...

I gave Wafa Sultan and Hirsi Ali just as examples of critics of Islam who belong to the same ethnic groups as most Muslims (and in fact originate from Islamic communities). So you cannot automatically call somebody a racist just because he criticizes Islam, unless you postulate that all Arabs, Pakistanis, Somalis etc. who criticize Islam are self-hating racists.
I wouldn't comment on the Palestinian American's blog, because the gap between our views seems so broad that no bridge can be built by the power of the Word. I don't see any need to exchange useless accusations and insults, so I never comment on blogs of Islamists and other 100% opponents. Most of them don't troll on my blog, either.
Redneck's citation is from the New Tastement - these are Jesus Christ's words. I cannot speak for Christians, but I think if I were a Christian, I would still have no problem with these words because, as you know, I am not a pacifist. Let's leave the problem for the pacifists, it's the least they deserve :).

Anonymous said...

The posts over in this section show the hypocrisy of some Christians in the West. First they believe them selves to be tolerant and thus better then Muslim that they perceive intolerant. They complain “Militant Islam” while praise their troops that are occupying Muslim countries. They complain about the restriction of freedom of speech while they restrict the freedoms of others, if some one speaks of the oppressive Jews in Israel then they are anti semitic. A news channel that shows pictures of dead Muslims killed by Christians ( Aljazeera, Abudabi) gets bombed [yes it did happen]. Christians praise them selves on how they have open societies with no racist laws, while Muslims living in those societies suffer from racial profiling and discrimination. They complain [Christians] about Muslims being closed minded, yet those same people post the most intolerant rubbish.
Its easy too come off as confrontational while writing anonymously in blogs, soon the whole discussion escalates and every one shows an ugly side, that they might have never had. I guess my point is that if you are going to accuse people don’t be guilty of the same thing your accusing them off.
Maya M for such a hater, I don’t know why you spend so much time in a Muslim blog.

Highlander said...

Programmer_Craig , I'm not sure what is the aim of the Burrabus quote. But it does come out as 'somewhat' threatening.

Anonymous said...

I thought my reply was original, as for the debate about Palestine/Western Sahara, I agree with your point. No one should colonize or occupy another people, and I am a big fan self determination. But I was taking a guess at explaining why people in the Middle East are more passionate about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict than they are about other conflicts in the region, for example Darfur or Iraq. I still think that when the perpetrators of colonization/occupation are foreign it arouses more anger, especially when it involves large scale ethnic cleansing like in Palestine. I know that some people will oppose the idea that Israel is responsible for large scale ethnic cleansing, but think about it, they wanted to create a Jewish home land, on land inhibited mostly by non-Jews, what was going to happen to most of those people?

P. C.
“And that's exactly the way Muslims sound whenever they talk about Christianity. See "Libyans" comment for an example”
That was my point exactly, I made a lot of generalizations but they were all true, whether it’s about discrimination against Muslims, or occupation of Muslim lands or bombing of Muslim media. I know those events don’t represent most Western people, and its not fair to associate ordinary Christians with what their governments do. But in some of your posts you are guilty of associating Muslims with what some extremists do, also you have a skewed knowledge of Muslim history, probably picked it up from right wing blogs. You also agree with what some of Maya M says and she has a MAJOR HATE PROBLEM. So again don’t be guilty of what you accuse others of doing.

programmer craig said...

Libyan,

also you have a skewed knowledge of Muslim history, probably picked it up from right wing blogs.

I don't even read any American blogs and I never have. Right wing or otherwise. 90% of the blogs I read are ME ones.

Are you sure it's me who has a "skewed" version of muslim history?

Why not argue that point, then? As best I can tell, most muslims don't know a damn thing about their own history, and accuse anybody who doesn't agree with what they've been taught of been brainwashed. Or. of having a "skewed" view :P

You also agree with what some of Maya M says and she has a MAJOR HATE PROBLEM.

Yes I do and yes she does. You might be surprised how many people are developing a major hate problem. As you said yourself, if she hated arabs/muslims as much as you think, why does she spend time on arab and muslim blogs?

Why do I? Seriously, have you ever thought about it?

Anonymous said...

P.C.

“Yes I do and yes she does. You might be surprised how many people are developing a major hate problem.”
Believe me it doesn’t surprise me at all. This is actually very consistent with Western history. The other day for a class assignment we had to look at newspapers from the time of the American Civil War, let’s just say that Whites at that time had a major hate problem against Blacks. Not to mention Nazi propaganda. The way I look at it, its our turn .
any way from what I understand is that you are blaming Muslims for the hate problem that’s brewing in the West. And you also blame Muslim for hating the West. It takes two to tango (sorry for the cliché).

“As you said yourself, if she hated arabs/muslims as much as you think, why does she spend time on arab and muslim blogs?
Why do I? Seriously, have you ever thought about it?”
Lets not paly a guesing game and you tell me?

programmer craig said...

Libyan,

I thought Jesus was middle eastern Jew?

Jesus was Christ. His followers are called "Christians" - not muslims.

I cannot begin to tell you how offensive it is to see a muslim like Ahmadinejad say that he knows Christ better than Christians do.

And I cannot begin to tell you how offensive it is to have muslims call Chist one of THEIR prophets, while at the same time they ridicule his teachings, as Redneck and LibyanWarrior both did in this very comment section.

If muslims think Jesus and his teachings were so laughable, then stop calling him an Islamic Prophet. He isn't.

I could be wrong, besides isn’t the monotheistic god Egyptian.

Abraham predates the 14th century BC by some 2000 years I think. And Noah was long before Abraham's time.

That is an interesting (I guess) link. A minor sun god who got elevated to the ONE God, by a pahraoh... for 20 years? That doesn't qualify as a religion in my book.

Actually I just did some more research on that, and it appears Aten was not considered the ONLY God under Amenhotep III, he was just considered the primary God.

If you're really interested (and not just starting trouble) Zoroastrianism is considered the formative religion of the three Abrahamic faiths - and most likely of this Aten worship as well. Atenism was roughly contemporary with the time of Moses. Ahura Mazda is older. Ahura Mazda is mentioned in the earliest Hebrew scriptures.

Sometimes you have to think before you type, the people you gave this advice too had Christian ancestors before you did

And then they converted to Islam. What's your point? That it's OK for muslims to denounce Christians because they had Christian ancestors? That it's OK for muslims to denounce Jesus, because he is mentioned in the Quran?

and they are still part of an evolving Middle Eastern religion that went through many phases, Christianity was only one phase.

If you've moved "beyond" it, then let go of it. It's not your religion, anymore. You do not respect the teachings of Jesus, any more. In fact, most muslims I see on blogs seem to absolutely loathe Christians, and by extension, loathe Jesus. STop pretending you revere him. You don't. You (or at least most the muslim commenters in this thread) denounce and demean his teachings at every opportunity. What little of his teachings you know, that is. Which isn't very much! And that's being charitable :)

Maya M said...

Non-Blogging, thank you for referring me to that article - it was an important read, although sad. I even feel guilty to the people of Bangladesh because I didn't know about that genocide. Indeed, this is not entirely my fault; it had to be mentioned in my history textbooks but their Communist authors apparently didn't find it important enough, coloured people butchering each other, why care... Don't believe when Leftists claim they are not racist! They are exactly as likely to be racist as anybody else.